JFJ Forums - 2 Prayers

Matthew 6
Jesus gives his disciples instruction on how to pray:
[9]Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
John 17
Jesus prays to the G-d the Father:
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[13] And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
[25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
[26] And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Y'shua is G-d, our righteousness.-We are sinners saved by Y'shua.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y'shua stresses His kingdom over Torah.-implying
the imperfection of the law as a method of obtaining His kingdom and how He was sent by G-d as the atonement for our sins.

cor517 Wrote:

Matthew 6
Jesus gives his disciples instruction on how to pray:
[9]Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
John 17
Jesus prays to the G-d the Father:
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[10] And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[13] And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
[25] O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
[26] And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Y'shua is G-d, our righteousness.-We are sinners saved by Y'shua.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y'shua stresses His kingdom over Torah.-implying
the imperfection of the law as a method of obtaining His kingdom and how He was sent by G-d as the atonement for our sins.

Obeying the Torah is not wrong until it becomes self-referential, that is when it becomes us doing the work, rather than simply following after and to be pleasing to The Almighty. Heaven's Rabbi did not give Toorah to save man, but to simply show man what he needed saving from. The unconditional love of the Savior provided that the law be given through Moses so that men become aware of their sins against God, to show us how far from perfection we really are, and understand that the sin of Adam has made all our best efforts to keep the law inadequate to save us. Keeping the law is not wrong if our motives are to obey The Savior. For the law is our schoolmaster to lead us to the knowledge of the heart, mind, and love of YHWH. With this knowledge of G-d, (theology) we then begin a love relationship with G-d, beginning to be able by His Spirit living in our hearts and minds, we requite the Creator with the same love He himself loves us with.

The problem with sin is that even when we stop doing it (by obeying Toorah), we are still guilty of having broken it. Guilt must be taken away. Why the Jewish and the pagan worlds are unable to see the Son of Man/Son of God, Yeshua ha Mashiach as the LAMB of God, the perfect blood sacrifice and atonement, is it not because they prefer their own ways?

Isaiah 52:13-15 "See how my servant will succeed! He will be raised up, exalted, highly honored! (14) Just as many were appalled at him, because he was so disfigured that he didn't even seem human and simply no longer looked like a man, (15) so now he will startle many nations; because of him, kings will be speechless. For they will see what they had not been told, they will ponder things they had never heard." Isaiah 53:1-12 Who believes our report? To whom is the arm of Adonai revealed? (2) For before him he grew up like a young plant, like a root out of dry ground. He was not well-formed or especially handsome; we saw him, but his appearance did not attract us. (3) People despised and avoided him, a man of pains, well acquainted with illness. Like someone from whom people turn their faces, he was despised; we did not value him. (4) In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God. (5) But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises [Or: and in fellowship with him] we are healed. (6) [color=purple]We all, like sheep, went astray; we turned, each one, to his own way; yet Adonai laid on him the guilt of all of us. (7) Though mistreated, he was submissive — he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb led to be slaughtered, like a sheep silent before its shearers, he did not open his mouth. (8) After forcible arrest and sentencing, he was taken away; and none of his generation protested his being cut off from the land of the living for the crimes of my people, who deserved the punishment themselves. (9) He was given a grave among the wicked; in his death he was with a rich man. Although he had done no violence and had said nothing deceptive, (10) yet it pleased Adonai to crush him with illness, to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering. If he does, he will see his offspring; and he will prolong his days; and at his hand Adonai's desire will be accomplished. (11) After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. "By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers. (12) Therefore I will assign him a share with the great, he will divide the spoil with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders."[/color]

I agree with your scriptures*, Yet was the Torah necessary for Abraham
to obtain the Kingdom. I don't think so, that leaves us the alternative of faith or listening to G-d himself speak to us, yet that is another thread or "point" of debate.

* contained in your post. Do I use a version diff, from yours? That is another thread or point of content.

cor517 Wrote:

I agree with your scriptures*, Yet was the Torah necessary for Abraham
to obtain the Kingdom. I don't think so, that leaves us the alternative of faith or listening to G-d himself speak to us, yet that is another thread or "point" of debate.

* contained in your post. Do I use a version diff, from yours? That is another thread or point of content.

3.18.09.07

Response to JFJ forum:

(I use a variety of english translations, and the section from Isaiah 52/53 above is from the Complete Jewish Bible )

Abraham lived and died before the commandments given on Mt. Sinai, and (am I correct?) before the Torah was written down. Faith/trust in the Almighty and acting on His SPOKEN Word was what saved Abraham. Faith must prove "herself" as "wisdom is  justified of her children". Matthew 11:19 Abraham, as Moses and many others, heard from the mouth of Elohim. The Commandments were given to the Children of Israel to prove them. We need to look at Exodus Ch. 19 and then Exodus 20:20. The Commandments were the chosen paradigm, the Way of the Almighty for the proving of the COI. They are, as Paul described later, the way to the Savior. Galatians Chapter three is a must read!

All this to say that if we understand the Law, and the Torah, and the Tanakh, and the Newer Covenant (the B'rit Hadashah)- ALL the Book, is the Almighty's guidebook for our heart, mind, soul and strength, to guide us into pure hearted love, a good (clean) conscience,and unfeigned  and faith.

Romans 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

1 Timothy 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Again the danger is in our remaining or backsliding into "self referential" behavior, that is, where we become the focus of our life, rather than The Messiah. If it is all about me, all my righteousness will be filthy rags. If it is all about Him, and it is, I will requite The Savior with the same holy pure and righteous love (in lovingly obedient behavior) with which He did first love me!!!

Many many Jewish people are just so close to God's heart in the devotion which they show to the Torah. Yet it is a "problem" to "solve": that The Almighty must be known by His Name and by the Name of His Son.

Acts 4:8-12  Then Kefa, filled with the Ruach HaKodesh, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people!  (9)  If we are being examined today about a good deed done for a disabled person, if you want to know how he was restored to health,  (10)  then let it be known to you and to all the people of Isra'el that it is in the name of the Messiah, Yeshua from Natzeret, whom you had executed on a stake as a criminal but whom God has raised from the dead, that this man stands before you perfectly healed.  (11) "This Yeshua is the stone rejected by you builders which has become the cornerstone.  (12)  There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!"

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.  (17)  For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved.  (18)  Those who trust in him are not judged; those who do not trust have been judged already, in that they have not trusted in the one who is God's only and unique Son.

Don't understand self reeveerential Torah observance you refer to.
Fair exchange of points of view though.