JFJ Forums - Peter and the Papacy.

DavidJ Wrote:

Finally Marina admits he has erred on this point of re-naming.

No, BigHodag admitted his error. Who's Marina?

DavidJ Wrote:

However, he still blindly asks this ridiculous question, "Why? What is the significance of Peter being the only one called "stone"?" I don't think he can read either, Peter himself is very clear that he was not the only one called a stone; Peter tells us himself, "....you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5)

No. I did not say 'Peter being the only one called "stone'". This reply is wrong on several levels.

First, Jesus renames only Peter among all the Apostles. No one has yet provided a nice simple straight forward answer to Why?

Second, in 1 Peter 2:5, Peter is not addressing the Apostles. Context? Also, I have never made the claim that "stone" is not used to describe anyone else at any other time in scripture. Peter remains the only one of the Apostles to be renamed by God. You claim that his name means "stone", not I.

Third, if we wish to look for other uses of "stone" in scripture, my version of e-Sword tells me that stone may be significant because the temple was built of stone. The commandments were written on stone. The walls of Jerusalem were built with stone. Peter, stone, temple, commandments.

Fourth, if one wished, one could also reject your interpretation of Peter meaning "stone" on a scriptural basis. Jesus is called the "stone" which the builders rejected ( Psalm 118:22, Matthew 21:42). Christ is therefore the stone and not Peter. Same argument you give for Peter not meaning rock since Jesus is called rock elsewhere in scripture. Calling Peter stone when Jesus is the stone would be putting Peter on the same level as God.

I understand your problem. You've painted yourselves into a corner and can't state the obvious answers as that would make the Catholic claims true and you can't have that. Second, by sticking to scripture alone, you have given me an advantage. The best you can do is a "tie" and the worst I can do is a "tie". Since the Catholic faith is found 100% in scripture, by using the Bible as the sole arbitrator, I can't "lose" and you can't "win". My individual interpretation of scripture is just as valid as yours.

You might also cease the <i>ad hominum</i> attacks of "blindly", "ridiculous", and "don't think he can read either" as they reduce the credibility of your debate.

I also note that Isaiah 22:22 is again being ignored.

bighodag Wrote:

No, BigHodag admitted his error. Who's Marina?

I am sorry, I meant you - I have made the same error elsewhere.

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bighodag Wrote: I have never made the claim that "stone" is not used to describe anyone else

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Posted by bighodag - Yesterday 01:36 PM
.....only Peter is a/the "stone".

DavidJ

bighodag Wrote:

I also note that Isaiah 22:22 is again being ignored.

prophet Wrote:

12-08-2007 04:05 PM
... Isaiah 22:22 is talking about Jesus NOT Peter and as I said before Peter's name means stone NOT rock....Jesus is the ROCK....

DavidJ Wrote:

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bighodag Wrote: I have never made the claim that "stone" is not used to describe anyone else

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Posted by bighodag - Yesterday 01:36 PM
.....only Peter is a/the "stone".

Ok, two extracts from my previous posts. What's your point? Surely you are not selectively quoting portions of more complete thoughts out of context in an attempt to deceive? Deception is not of God.

The lower quote in full reads: "All the apostles are equals, but only Peter is a/the "stone". The paragraph from which this sentence and your partial quote is taken is entirely in regards to Peter and the Twelve. The clearly expressed point being that Peter is the only one of the Twelve to be renamed "stone" by Jesus.

The upper quote, as you know, was in regards to 1 Peter 2:5 where Peter has long apart from the Twelve and is writing the elect in five provinces of the Empire. There was the little problem of you taking 1 Peter 2:5 out of context just as you have removed the contex from the two quotes above.

Again, what's your point?

DavidJ Wrote:

prophet Wrote:

12-08-2007 04:05 PM
... Isaiah 22:22 is talking about Jesus NOT Peter and as I said before Peter's name means stone NOT rock....Jesus is the ROCK....

Ok, since you two folks are so adament that Isaiah 22:22 is talking about Jesus, I'm going to have to agree with both of you that Isaiah 22:22 is indeed prophecy by Isaiah that Jesus (God) would hand His keys of authority to Peter, signifying that Peter is Jesus' chamberlain and acts with Jesus' (God's) full authority to bind and loosen. Isaiah is after all a major prophet. The Old testament foreshadows the New. Isaiah has many prophecies concerning Jesus. Isaiah 22:22 is an almost an exact quote of Matthew 16:19. King David is clearly Jesus as Jesus is of David's line, and Peter is clearly Eliakim. Yep, your evidence and stunning arguements are overwhelming that Isaiah 22:22 is clearly about Jesus establishing one Church and giving Peter authority over it. Well done!

God bless...

[BTW, I showed these threads to a Jewish friend of mine with whom I discuss Christian and Jewish theology. He was none too impressed with your debate. He's been pondering converting to the Catholic faith. You pretty much made the case for him regarding the truth of Catholicism. Thanks!]

bighodag Wrote:

Ok, two extracts from my previous posts. What's your point?

That you contradicted yourself and have now moved the goalposts; your manipulating and making it up as you go along.

"

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All the apostles are equals,

That has been the Biblical Christian stance all along - only you are trying to manipulate context to fit it into papist heresy.

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Agree with us? Your manipulating again - no one has 'agreed' with you that Isaiah 22:22 is a prophesy of Jesus handing His keys to anyone. Notwhere, anywhere does the prophet make any such prophesy. Revelation 3:7 confirms Isaiah 22:22 that Jesus alone holds the key of David[/b and did not hand them to Peter or anyone else. [b]"The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens." This is the clearest statement by Jesus Himself that He, not Peter, holds the Key of David which blows your heretical interpretation of Isaiah 22;22 out of the water.

DavidJ

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bighodag Wrote:
[BTW, I showed these threads to a Jewish friend of mine with whom I discuss Christian and Jewish theology

Maybe your Jewish friend didn't read my testimony in which neither Papism, Peter nor Pope played any part ..... See http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/showthread.php?tid=663

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DavidJ Wrote:
"I was not looking for Jesus. I did't want to even know Him, but Jesus came along and He touched me.

In 1934, I was born into a family of Plymouth Brethren. By the time I was 17 I had really become to hate the austere legalism. However, I did learn all about the Bible in depth and all the old hymns including Sankeys and Alexanders hymnals. I never got saved and left home (amicably) to join the Royal Air Force at age 17. On leaving the R.A.F I became a Police Officer on leaving the police service after 25 years service I went to University and as a resut I became the General Office Manager of the international legal formalities pf a famous Multinational Intellectual Property Department During this period (due to my political left-wing affiliations) I was elected Chairman of the Managers, Administrators, Technicians and Supervisors Trade Union and involved myself. I became a convinced atheist.

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At 9pm on Palm Sunday 12th April 1987 I was on my way to a Public House to drink with some friends. Only a few day previously I had very reluctantly attended, a gathering of Christians. I did not attend the small Christian gathering because I have any interest in religion; I was an Atheist. I attended for an alterior motive - I had become attracted to what I considered a potentional partner! Much to my un-ease and disgust the person concerned sat next to me and prayed quietly for me all through the meeting.

So back to journey to the Public House! As the City Hall clock chimed 9pm I became aware that I was not alone. I felt the awesome presence of someone I did not know. I fell to my knees in the awesomeness of His presence; at this point I became aware - the awareness was a conviced knowledge - that my life was never ever going to be the same again. I did not know who this person was or what had happened to me and I have no recollection of travelling home that night. All I know is that I did not go the Public House to meet my friends.

The next morning at about 7am I awoke and did what was always my addiction; I reached out for my cigarettes of which I normally smoked 3 with a large mug of tea in lieu of breakfast (my average cigarette consumption was about 40 per day) but now - to my utter shock - I just could not touch them - the thought of smoking one made me feel sick - I have never smoked or had the desire to smoke since and that is 20 years ago.

I then had an overwhelming desire to find a Bible, which of course, as an atheist , I did not possess. However I remembered I was given a Bible when I joined the RAF at the age of 17, and after considerable rummaging in the attic,I found it and was immediately guided to Psalm 51.… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2051

For a number of weeks I wept remorsefully before the true and living God for my sins and unbelief - I pleaded with Jesus - the risen living Saviour to be my Lord and my God and to save me.

HE SAVED ME - He gave me joy inexpressible - life abundant - He lifted me out of the dunghill and placed me among princes - He filled me His Blessed Holy Spirit and eventually revealed His plan and purpose for me.

With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

DavidJ Wrote:

bighodag Wrote:

Ok, two extracts from my previous posts. What's your point?

That you contradicted yourself and have now moved the goalposts; your manipulating and making it up as you go along.

"

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All the apostles are equals,

That has been the Biblical Christian stance all along - only you are trying to manipulate context to fit it into papist heresy.

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Perfect answer....that is game set and match as far as Peter and Isahiah 22:22

prophet Wrote:

Perfect answer....that is game set and match as far as Peter and Isahiah 22:22

Prophet, I hope you will not be upset; I am sure your motives are Godly. However I do feel this could be seen as triumphalism. Like you and I, our Roman Catholic friends are truly seeking God in their lives and, irrespective of how I may come over on the internet, I have a deep love and compassion for them. Jesus died for them also.

Our young friend Goy of Yeshua, for example, has family who are Roman Catholics; we should be earnestly be praying for him and for his family - they are very special to The Lord.

Now we have established the confirmation of Isaiah 22:22 by The Word in Revelation 3:7 that Jesus, not Peter, has the Keys of Heaven and that only Jesus, not Peter, opens and no man closes, and He closes and no man opens, then we should look at what the keys were that Jesus did in fact entrust to Peter?

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Paul  told the Christians in Rome to submit to the lawful government unless they compel you to do something contrary to Scripture. Governments were instituted by God for the welfare of man and EVERY person is under the authority of the government in which they live—just like every driver must obey the traffic laws in his country or he will soon end up dead. . . .There are no exceptions. No one is ABOVE the government except Jesus Christ the King of kings: "Let EVERY soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves DAMNATION. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil......" (Romans 16:1-2).

The Pope at Rome refuses to submit to the lawful Italian government. Vatican City State is a State with a State

With that truth firmly in mind, let us examine what were the keys that Jesus gave to  Peter.  Peter  used them on the Day of Pentecost to open the kingdom of God—the true church—to the Jews. He preached the first Christian sermon and urged the Jews to repent and believe in the Risen Christ: "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning every one of you from his iniquities" (Acts 3:26).

A while later Peter used these same keys to open the kingdom of God to the Gentiles when he preached the first sermon to them in the house of an Italian soldier named Cornelius: "Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in EVERY nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted of him" (Acts 10:34-35).

After that task was accomplished, Peter had no further need of the keys and he fades from history to be replaced - not by a pope - but by the Apostle Paul. Nobody knows for sure where Peter is buried . . . but God knows . . . and he will be raised on the Last Day.

Peter returned the keys to their rightful owner because around 90 A.D., Jesus said: "The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens." (Revelation  3:7). Moses said this 3500 years ago: "For their rock is not as our Rock" (Deuteronomy . 32:31).

DavidJ

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