JFJ Forums

Christians often speak of the Trinity,
some go as far as to call Jesus a god, or the only one true god...etc...

But how is this supported in the OT?

This is the challenge:
Read ALL the following verses (in this order), and then tell me, how exactly anyone can worship Jesus?

1. Exo 20:2-6
2. Deut 4:15
3. Deut 4:35
4. Deut 4:39
5. Isaiah 44:6-8
6. Isaiah 45:5-10
7. Isaiah 45:14-19
8. Isaiah 46:8-13
9. Deut 6:4
10. Num 23:19
11. I Sam 15:29
12. Psa 146:3
13. Deut 24:16
14. Deut 12:31
15. Deut 32:16
16. Deut 13:2-6
17. Deut 18:9-14
18. Hosh. 14:2
19. I Kings 8:44-53
20. Jer 50:20
21. Jer 36:6
22. Jonah 3:7-10
23. Deut 4:40
24. Deut 5:10
25. Eze 37:15-28.

Now I know its a long list...take your time, go through it slowly and then ask yourself, is this all about Jesus or G-d?  Who am I a servant of?

Before we pretend to have all Bible knowledge why don’t we first spend some time in the first book of Moses that you seemed to have accidentally missed and therefore failed to appropriate true worship in Jesus Name.

Not taking Bereshit (Genesis) seriously may be the reason why some err and do not recognize the deity of Messiah which was hinted from the very beginning!

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My answer is also a challenge:

Lets study the first Messianic prophecy mentioned in Genesis 3:15 and Eve’s mistiming of her revelation in Genesis 4:1-2.

Please explain why does the Hebrew Bible state
“I have gotten a man the YHVH.”

The G-d man concept so early in scripture?

Neither of Eve’s twins (Kayin, Havel) fulfilled the revelation of Genesis 3:15 and so humanity had to wait for the seed (singular) until... it was fulfilled by the suffering servant, the Messiah, the Son of G-d, the G-d-man, Jesus Christ who is worthy to be praised.

Wisdom is the application of knowledge and to understand the Torah one must repent from the Greek linear logic or one will fail to apply life from the scriptures. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

In Genesis 22:11 he is the Angel of YHVH, but God himself in 22:12. These passages may be hard for a Greek mind to understand therefore I strongly suggest a first century Hebrew education mixed with humility and a lot of shema.

Blessed be the Name of Yeshua HaMashiach!

I'm sure Dannyil will also comment on all these comments, but I just have to say something here. The text doesn't say that. It says, "I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord."

You're right it is, Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man".

Exactly what prophecy is this? There is no prophecy here. There is only a statement.

Do you even read what you quote? If you would you would see that this is God speaking through the angle. Never once does it say the angle is God.


I suggest a lot of Torah study for you.

The expression, "the seed of the woman," is very striking, in that it never occurs elsewhere. According to the Biblical narrative, posterity is never reckoned after the female but always after the male. A glance at the many genealogies in the Scriptures confirms this fact. But here the conqueror of man's great enemy is to be "the seed of the woman." The fact that he is thus designated is a clear indication that there is something about his personality that makes him "the seed of the woman" in a peculiar sense that can be said of no other one.

The outcome of the struggle and the character of the defeat which "the seed of the woman" will inflict upon His adversary is represented as a crushing blow upon the head, whereas that which the adversary does to Him is as a slight wound upon the heel. ùÑåÌó is the verb used and, unlike ùÑÈàÇó, takes a double accusative. Its evident force is seen by the fact that the Targum uses it for ãÌÄëÌÈà to crush; èÈçÇï to grind to powder; and ùÑÈçÇ÷ to pulverize. This prophecy, the first in the revelation of God, graphically sets before us the outcome of the age-long conflict: the enemy of man lying prostrate upon the ground, having received a crushing blow upon his head, and the victor standing above him with only a flesh wound upon his heel. Professor Delitzsch correctly declares: "only when we translate it: 'He (the seed of the woman) shall crush thee on the head' . . ., does the sentence include the definite promise of victory over the serpent, which, because it suffers the deadly tread, seeks to defend itself, and sinking under the treader is mortally wounded (Gen. 49:17)." The goal toward which all history is moving is here announced in this graphic, cryptic oracle.

That the ancient synagogue interpreted this passage as a messianic prediction is clear from the Palestinian Targum which testifies that in Genesis 3:15 is the promise of the healing of the serpent's bite "at the end of the days, in the days of King Messiah."

"And I will put enmity between thee and the WOMAN, and between the seed of thy sons, and between the SEED of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the WOMAN keep the commandments of the LAW, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy HEAD; but if they forsake the commandments of the LAW, thou wilt be prepared to wound them in the heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a MEDICINE; and they shall make a REMEDY for the heel in the days of the King MESHIHA."--Targum Palestine (or Jerusalem).

The Palestinian Midrash (Bereshith rabba XII) declares, "The things which God created perfect since man sinned have become corrupt (ðú÷ì÷ìå) and do not return to their proper condition until the son of Perez (i.e. according to Gen. xxxviii:29; Ruth iv:18ff, the Messiah out of the tribe of Judah) comes." This interpretation correctly makes Messiah the restorer of the primitive order and the reconciler of the estranged world to God. Onkelos together with others translate as follows:

"And I will put enmity between thy son and her SON; HE will remember thee and what thou didst to HIM from (at) the beginning, and thou shalt be observant unto HIM at the end."--Targum Onkelos.

"When Adam saw the darkness it is added, he was greatly afraid, saying, 'Perhaps HE of whom it is written, "HE shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise HIS HEEL," cometh to molest and attack me,' and he said: 'Surely the darkness shall cover me.'"--Shemoth Rabbah, 12 (ed. Warsh. p. 24b).

"As thou wentest forth for the SALVATION OF THY PEOPLE by the hands of the MESHIHA the SON OF DAVID, who shall WOUND SATAN who is the head, the King and Prince of the house of the wicked, and shall . . . (overturn) all his strength, power, policy and dominion." --R. David Kimchi.

Gen. 16:7-10
7 An angel of Ad-noy found her by a spring of water in the desert, at the spring on the road to Shur.
8 And he said: "Hagar, handmaid of Sarai, from where have you come and where are you going?" She said: "I am running away from my mistress, Sarai."
9 The angel of Ad-noy said to her: "Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her."
10 The angel of Ad-noy said to her: "I will greatly multiply your descendants that they can not be counted because of their great number.

This whole event in the Torah is not a prophecy. It is simply telling us why snakes and people are natural enemies. Nothing more.

Where is this a Messianic prophecy?
In fact, the punishment is a hard pregnancy, fraught with danger
People die, because of this sin....

Now do people have hard pregnancies today? YES!
Do people die? YES!

This is an example of the reality of the world, as it is now, and the explanation of why that is so....



I'm sorry, but where is this in your bible.  Please, whenever you quote something, please provide the reference.

See Num. 23:19.  The Ultimate Challenge, has for the most part, answered most questions.



I'm sorry, but I don't understand.  There is no prophecy here...and Eve had a painful birth, and guess what? Adam, Eve, Kain and Hevel, and the rest of humanity died....and will die....



I have no idea what this means....what has Greek linear logic have to do with anything?



erm....do you understand, speak and learn Hebrew?

It says an angel of HASHEM did these things....in verse 22:12, the same angel continues...I'm sorry but I don't see where you're getting Greek into this?  I'm looking at the Hebrew and that is what it says....

Danny.

Firstly, the Targum is specifically referring to Torah Study as a cure for this.  
Secondly, The Targum is not saying this is a prophecy and is Messianic.  Again, the Targum is simply stating the reverse, in the Messianic era, there will no longer be this enmity with man and snake.

Again, this is not the case....shall we test the scenario - shall we get a cobra, and let it lose in a Messianic Church and see what happens?  Shall we see people walk up to it, get bitten, and live? NO!

Do we see people dying? YES!

This shows that we're not in the Messianic Era, which is what the Targum is referring to.



I'm sorry, but I don't see this reference, you'll have to be more specific...Bereishis Rabba 12 has 12 subdivisions....(on pg 24b, there are a number of different statements, but I don't see yours)


I'm sorry but I don't have this reference....try again.

However, if you're interested, the Rabbinic Literature speaks about Jesus.
In an early edition of the Ibn Ezra (see Bomberg's Mikraos Gedolos 1525)
on Daniel 11:13-14 he says that:
"in those days, there will be those that separate from Israel and these are in the time of a man who calls himself god of the uncircumcised and he according to their words that was in the days of Herod, because our wise and holy ones say that he was in the days of Shimon ben Shetach, and this the truth."  This places Jesus at in 130 BCE.  Now I don't expect you to find this so easily, because in the regular printed editions it is not written like that (due to Christian censorship no doubt.) But if you get hold of a 1525 version, of the Ibn Ezra on this verse....this will clarify all doubts about what the Jews Sages consider Jesus to be...

Danny

J: Never says "seed of a womam". This honor was held for only one. Mary the theotoke {God bearer}.
Daniel: Never was this creature  refered to as a "snake". It was a "serpent" {which is also a poor translation}. Get the cobra idea out of you mind. It was the nachash and probably the Ha satan himself.

Danny,

Here is reality.
There is no temple (temporal building, structure) for (sacrificial purposes) standing.
If you are bound by Torah, a priest must offer atonement for you.
There is no true visible theocracy or true visible messianic kingdom at this time. (There is political spin.)
Abraham did not read Torah. (He walked by faith)
The Law was given to preserve Messiah's seed through the Promise.
There is evil, for there are those ignorant (willingly) and unwillingly of
the goodness of G_D. (AND THOSE THAT VIOLATE TORAH)
History proves through religious and secular collaboration, Jesus existed.
He was mocked, falsely accused and tried at Passover.
He said, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

We are dealing here with the same problems Y'shua encountered 2000+ yrs. ago. i.e. This is nothing new , Danny.

Y'shua and His disciples- including Paul, did NOT
abolish or attempt to abolish Kosher Observance or Sabbath Observance, OR the TORAH.
I am sorry that you make no attempt to understand Paul's letters.
I am sure He was much more familiar with Rabbinical Judaism than you are.
The church could have and would have survived without Paul. G_d
chose to use him. He sought acceptance from the christians whilst the Jews tried to kill him. (For the reason stated above)
It is sad you refuse to accept the New Testament.
The New Testament records many Jewish converts (those believing Y'shua to be Messiah) including those from Orthodox Judaism.
The New Testament records the RISEN LORD, and the promises of the Father.
There are many people (Jewish) today who believe Y'shua is MESSIAH, THE CHRISTOS.
There are many gentiles (today) who believe Y'shua is the MESSIAH, THE CHRISTOS.

Abraham by faith recieved the promises.


The underlying theme throughout the Old and New Testament is faith in,
hope of, and love for G_d. Y'shua had the faith, hope, and love of YHVH.
He showed it to His neighbor's.

Shalom