JFJ Forums - Jews for Jesus=Christians?

Yachel Ha-Yarden Wrote:

david Wrote:

modern judaists are not the election.

... the jews split and abrahams children followed jesus and satan children denied him, this is a promise made to messianc jews and their grafted.

this chosen is not an ethnic choosing, it a spiritual one. one is not chosen because they are a jew....the are a jew because they are chosen. the election are the one who elected to follow jesus.

it amazes me how often a pro-ethnic poster puts up a quote that disproves the very thing they trying to prove.

do you see that last line in your quote? "god did not spare the natural branches..."? how do you say that the 'natural branches' are the elective or the chosen? maybe you cant see that because you say 'jews' ,that the judaist will think that you are confessing HIS faith. they will still claim to be under a covenant with god? here it says that they were broken off!!! why were they broken off? because they didnt believe in jesus christ. do you see it says broken off for 'unbelief'?

Indeed, God may not have spared the natural branches, but they REMAIN the natural branches. We Gentiles did not become "naturalized" and they (the Jews who rejected the gospel) "denaturalized". The context of Romans 10-11 implies that the Jews spoken here were those who REJECTED the Gospel. The gentiles who accepted the Gospel are NOT to think of themselves in the same terms as the Jews, for the Gentile stands ONLY by faith. Pride, i.e, boastfulness, is NOT faith.

david Wrote:

... the promise god made to the ancients was filled in the death and ressurection. because jesus descended to sheol and pulled them all out that was righteous. the state of israel means nothing, for this is the REAL salvation. and all the living jews who were alive and came to believe in jesus were set up for the new covenant BY jesus, because the old one was about to be annulled. the unfaithful were then "BROKEN OFF" OR "CUT OFF" or however you want to say judaism is finished, and everybody is now under the new covenant. jews, gentiles, goys, goyhims. goyhers and yes, even catholics.

Indeed, broken off, yes cut off, (karet), but even the Jews who were cut off are STILL called "the natural branches" and Gentiles called "the unnatural branches". Show me where in the book of Romans, or even in the entire NT, or even the whole Bible, where the Jews who were cut off are called "unnatural branches."

david Wrote:

they were not grafted in place of messianic jews. they were grafted in place of the unbelieving jews that were broken off. its the first messianics that are the naturals remained after the other naturals were out.

I never said that Gentiles grafted in place of the Messianics. What St. Paul said was that believing Gentiles were grafted in the place of UNBELIEVING Jews. That still does not give believing Gentiles a right to boast against the unbelieving Jews.

david Wrote:

when you say the natural branches 'will always be the jews" is a problem. the problem your doing is that you are not making any distinction between messianics and the church (previously messianic or their converts) and the anti-christian jews who were booted. you mislead even the watchers that are watching us. you cant 'lump sum' jews anymore. they are many different now. not like ancient times when there was a unity. jesus divides and he said he came to divide. if your not a jew for jesus, your just a jew for ill-fate. and then they will be chosen? what is chosen about a person who is cut off from grace?

I did not make the distinction: St. Paul did. Remember, he said, "The Jew FIRST..." Furthermore, St. Paul writes this:

St. Paul, in Romans 11, Wrote:

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."[g]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In other words, as far as the election, the state of being CHOSEN, is concerned, they are still beloved because of the promise to the Patriarchs, i.e., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Notice here that S. Paul is NOT talking about believing Jews but UNBELIEVING Jews as still beloved.

david Wrote:

in the rabbis mind, and in the mind of his elective, christian believers are not jews. so if you say 'jews' to a judaist, they think you mean them. so then you if say that they are 'naturals' or they are 'chosen', they can deduce that you are confessing THEIR righteousness. THEY WILL SAY THAT THEY ARE THE TRUE FAITH AND QUOTE YOU.

If they quote me, they will do so by misquoting me. They are still chosen, but one's eternal salvation is NOT dependent on being one of the elect. It all depends on faith. What I'm saying is, if a person who is NOT chosen accepts Jesus Christ, s/he will be saved. On the other hand, if a person is one of the elect but has no faith in Jesus Christ, that person will be damned, even if that person is elect. So rather than focus on being one of the "chosen", why not emphasize, or rather, CONFESS our utter unworthiness and accept God's grace through Jesus Christ.

david Wrote:

if you dont make clear the distinction, you are only setting up the confusion and satan is loving it.

I also remind you that even after your namesake David was anointed to be the new king in place of King Saul, David still called Saul "God's anointed" and refused to have anything to do with actually bringing harm to the king. Was not Saul rejected? Yes he was. Did David still call him the anointed one? Yes he did.

Replace "Saul" with "unbelieving Jew" and David with "Messianic/Christian" and "anointed one" with "chosen". Do you get the picture? Remember that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and by speaking against God's elect one is in danger of rebelling against God himself.

Yachel,
You're saying what so many have already tried to tell david, who is an anti-Semite.

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

Yachel,
You're saying what so many have already tried to tell david, who is an anti-Semite.

Duh-OHHH!!!

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

david Wrote:

Indeed, God may not have spared the natural branches, but they REMAIN the natural branches. We Gentiles did not become "naturalized" and they (the Jews who rejected the gospel) "denaturalized".isnt that what i been posting all over the place? The context of Romans 10-11 implies that the Jews spoken here were those who REJECTED the Gospel .isnt that what i been posting all over the place?he gentiles who accepted the Gospel are NOT to think of themselves in the same terms as the Jews, for the Gentile stands ONLY by faith. Pride, i.e, boastfulness, is NOT faith.what is all this? am i less than a jew in gods eye? that it seem you are telling me and if i disagree then you and others label me anti-semetic? this to me is reversed anti-semetic. anyone who thinks that a ethnic jew is better than anyone else is reading the wrong scripture. even you say that pride and boastful is not faith but to say jews are special is just that very thing isnt it?

david Wrote:

I never said that Gentiles grafted in place of the Messianics. i know you didnt. i said for clarification and you split in two and understood two different things. What St. Paul said was that believing Gentiles were grafted in the place of UNBELIEVING Jews.

isnt that what i been posting all over the place? isnt that almost word for word in my above paragraph? the one that u took the liberty to alter by inserting bold tags which i never meant to emphasize it.

That still does not give believing Gentiles a right to boast against the unbelieving Jews.

where do you get the boasting from? who is boasting? u got a strange spirit guide whispering in your ear tell you that im boasting or something?

david Wrote:

I did not make the distinction: St. Paul did. Remember, he said, "The Jew FIRST..." Furthermore, St. Paul writes this:sorry goy, your reading comprehension is very poor and you need to study the posts more before you attack them. you are not comprehending im saying. that it pretty clear to me. sorry, excuse me. PLEASE STOP ALTERING MY POSTS. MISTAKE THE FIRST TIME, THE NEXT TIME U DO IT, IT DISHONEST.

St. Paul, in Romans 11, Wrote:

david Wrote:

if you dont make clear the distinction, you are only setting up the confusion and satan is loving it.

Yachel,
You're saying what so many have already tried to tell david, who is an anti-Semite.

GEE! IS THERE ANYONE IN THIS FORUM THAT DOESNT THINK IM ANTI SEMITE OR ANTI-JEWISH? YOU ARE ALL BLIND! HOW CAN YOU CALL ME THIS AND UNDERSTAND ANYTHING I TRY TO SHARE WITH YOU. IF YOU UNDERSTOOD ANYTHING FROM IT, YOU WILL KNOW THAT THIS IS A LIE BY A " HIT AND RUN" ASSASSIN! !

[/quote]

Yachel Ha-Yarden Wrote:

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY. BUT WHO CAN UNDERSTAND YOU! WHY CANT YOU COMPREHEND WHAT I WROTE INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU ****READ INTO***** WHAT I WROTE?

Remember that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and by speaking against God's elect one is in danger of rebelling against God himself.

U RATIONALIZING TO MAKE A SIN TO FIT ME? I DONT KNOWINGLY SPEAK AGAINST GOD IN ANY FORM, SO DONT TRY TO CALL THE FIRE DOWN ON ME MR JUDGE. YOU ARE NOT GODS ELECT ESPECIALLY WHEN U PULL THIS THREAT STUFF ON ME! YOU ARE THE RACIST TO MAKE YOURSELFS SPECIAL ON THE MOUNTAIN. IT NOT ME...IT YOU!!!!!EVEN YOU MOVED IN 2000 YEARS LATE AND YOU TRY TAKE OVER AND DICTATE LAW ON THIS HOLY MOUNTAIN?? TAKE YOUR TRAPS BACK TO YOUR PIT AND HELP MARTIN LUTHER SNARE THE RJUDAISTS WHEN THEY COME UP.

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

Yachel Ha-Yarden Wrote:

david Wrote:

I did not make the distinction: St. Paul did. Remember, he said, "The Jew FIRST..." Furthermore, St. Paul writes this:

St. Paul, in Romans 11, Wrote:

david Wrote:

if you dont make clear the distinction, you are only setting up the confusion and satan is loving it.

Yachel,
You're saying what so many have already tried to tell david, who is an anti-Semite.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

EVEN IF YOUR ENEMY IS A JEW.

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