PART 2
The Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles
Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. [12] And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (KJV)
Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; [6] I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; (KJV)
Jeremiah 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. (KJV)
PART 3
The Building of the Third Temple
Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. [28] And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (KJV)
When all of these things take place, and a king descended from David sits on the throne, we will know who the Messiah is. Until these things happen, we shall wait. We have no way of knowing who that future king is until these things take place. The standard Christian argument is to thus claim that Jesus will accomplish these things in his "Second Coming."
It's not not my view, it's G-d's Words.
Why is it important for SMR to prove that most posters here are not Jewish?
Could it be prejudice?
Why cant nonjews be spiritual?
What do you need Messiah for then - just to take care of the bully gentiles that oppress Israel? This would be a very shallow view of Messiah - I doubt this is your view.
ThirdDay,
No offense, but the view of most Talmudists is what you just spoke of as "very shallow", and is likely searchin's view.
Chad,
You said;
"Why is it important for SMR to prove that most posters here are not Jewish?
Could it be prejudice?
Why cant nonjews be spiritual?"
SMR:
Because it seems more like xtians trying to convert Jews than actual Messianic Jews trying to convert Jews.
Nope, no prejudice, just facts.
Non Jews can be spiritual and many of them are.
I in no way, shape or form think that non Jews have any less of a connection with G-d. I just think they should let the Jews be Jews.
The Hebrew bible says over and over that G-d is close to ALL who call His name.
What do you need Messiah for then - just to take care of the bully gentiles that oppress Israel? This would be a very shallow view of Messiah - I doubt this is your view.
ThirdDay,
No offense, but the view of most Talmudists is what you just spoke of as "very shallow", and is likely searchin's view.
Yes fellow goy, I'm afraid you're right - it sounds similar to Oprah's view of G-d, i.e. that G-d is not concerned with our sin, instead he just wants to rescue us from our pain w/o out really fixing what's wrong with us.
SMR, the Scriptures you quote about Messiah are of course all true and will be fulfilled, but we all have a much more serious problem than earthly oppression. Shalom on earth can never be accomplished until shalom within our souls and shalom with G-d is FIRST accomplished. We all have evil inclinations - we lie, do selfish things, etc (
http://www.livingwaters.com/good). We have broken G-d's commandments thousands of times in deed and thought. G-d's wrath abides upon us - we are like a dried leaf in the presence of a fire. Isaiah says even our "good" works are like filthy (menstrual) rags to G-d. If atonement hadn't been provided and Messiah was to come today and rid the world of evil, we would all be eliminated! You see, you and I are what's wrong with this world! Messiah first came to mercifully take care of the sin problem of his sheep (to redeem us), next he will come to separate the sheep from the goats (casting the goats into hell) and complete the process of changing the hearts of sheep from their sinful nature to a nature like Messiah. So 1st Messiah came to redeem our souls, and after the time of Jacob's trouble, he will make shalom on earth. This is not a Christian invention, but the message of the Scriptures. Yes, in the Tanakh, the order of the Messianic activities can be difficult to discern, but for centuries the Rabbis have talked of the TWO Messiah figures in Scripture: Mashiach ben David (kingly Messiah) and Mashiac ben Joseph (suffering savior messiah). As history has played itself out, we have come to see how both Messiah roles are fulfilled.
SMR, would you acknowledge there is more needed to make shalom on earth than eliminating the worst sinners? Our history shows we would regress back to our current level of evil in a short time. Our inner shalom problem wouldn't be fixed and our sin keeping us from having shalom with our Creator would still not be fixed. Messiah's role is to be that high priest who once and for all fixes our relationship with our creator so we can truly have lasting shalom, living in eternal shabbat in the finished work of Messiah. We will live in eternity enjoying the fruits of the work of Messiah, not boasting in our own pitiful "good works".
ThirdDay,
When the true messiah arrives, ALL those prophecies will come to play. Nothing ever points to a "second coming". That is why jc was not the messiah, specifically for all of the reasons you point out! All of the world is filled with sin! Well, the Hebrew bible says when messiah comes that will be no more.
I'll sum up your misconception of "deeds".
It is quite simple, if we follow G-d's word, His instructions, then there wouldn't be sin. So YES, it is all based on "doing" what G-d wants us to do. The more we follow His ways, the less we sin.
We don't "boast" of our works. As a matter of fact, if you studied Judaism, you would see most acts are to be done anonymously and without expecting something in return. How is that boastful?
Jesus said that principle of law religion people make converts and make them two times a child of hell in Matthew 23.
We are following Biblical Judaism. It doesn't look Jewish to you, but many others are now starting to see Christianity as Jewish.
You don't have any propitiatory sacrifice in the temple, all you can do is swing a chicken over your head once a year.
We have the lamb of God who came to pay for the sins of the world.
I would be nicer, but you are agressively invadeing the believers areas of this forum and not just posting in the why I don't believe in Jesus section, so I have to refute you hard for the sake of others who might see this.
CS Lewis said hell is more like a nasty buisness office than something decadent. Thats what Rabbinism is, a nasty buisness office of good works religion and a departure from the faith of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob.
So what are you saying? Who are these spiritual nonjews you talk of? Converts to Orthodoxy? Noahides who number in the dozens? Or the idolotrous followers of Jesus you say worship that which is not God?
When the true messiah arrives, ALL those prophecies will come to play. Nothing ever points to a "second coming". That is why jc was not the messiah, specifically for all of the reasons you point out! All of the world is filled with sin! Well, the Hebrew bible says when messiah comes that will be no more.
Where do the Scriptures say all the messianic propheceis (x, y, z) will be fulfilled at the same time? That seems to be your assumption. Interestingly, it hasn't always been the Rabbinic assumption though. What do you make of the Mashiac ben Joseph and Mashiac ben David roles described in the Talmud?
The details of how prophecy is to be fulfilled is often not completely spelled out in Scripture. The people of G-d have often been surprised on the details of how prophecies have actually been fulfilled. On what grounds can you dogmatically say all the Messianic prophecies have to be fulfilled at the same time (since the Scriptures do not say that)? Will Messiah come lowly and riding on a donkey (Zech 9:9), and will Israel look upon him whom they pierced (Zech 12:10), all at the same time Messiah comes as a conquering king destroying his enemies, making peace, and fulfilling all the other prophecies? The NT explains how Messiah can fulfill all these prophecies, the Rabbinic view does not - instead it tends to sweep under the rug the prohecies that don't fit their model. Wouldn't you admit there's some truth to that?
We don't "boast" of our works. As a matter of fact, if you studied Judaism, you would see most acts are to be done anonymously and without expecting something in return. How is that boastful?
That's great, but wouldn't you say the reason G-d has extended the gracious gift of salvation/heaven to you, but gives hell to others is because you were good/wise enough to do the good deeds G-d has required of you, while the others did not? In short, you gained heaven by way of your good deeds - right? The Christian view is (the Scriptural view) that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d - none is good enough - we need grace and lots of it! In the end G-d will be the only one who can take any credit - all the glory will be his - Hallelujah!!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [that is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I in no way, shape or form think that non Jews have any less of a connection with G-d. I just think they should let the Jews be Jews.
The Hebrew bible says over and over that G-d is close to ALL who call His name.
Hi SMR,
So anyone can come to G-d anyway they want? Oprah would agree. But, that's not what the Scriptures teach. See Genesis 3 for example. G-d even condemned the Israel's high places of the Northern kingdom. Look how meticulous G-d was in specifying how he was to be worshiped by Israel in the Torah. Aaron's sons were killed for getting it wrong - as were David's servants who touched the Ark. Idolatry (making up our own G-d and way to approach him) was explicitly forbidden in the strongest language. G-d has not been silent on how Israel was to come to him. He has prescribed particular laws for Israel in the past and ALSO has prescribed a a common set of expectations to all (Jew and Gentile). We all our bound by the laws of conscience (which I would argue match up well with 9 and in a sense all 10 of the commandments on the stone tablets). And G-d has made it abundantly clear that we all fall short of his expectations and all DESPERATELY need grace and mercy. But there is no such thing a Gentile way and a Jewish way of receiving grace and mercy unto salvation (and he has provided it - Hallelujah!). We all come to G-d, one way - we all need atonement. And atonement was specified to be through a perfect blood sacrifice - no other way. And only a perfect blood sacrifice could be sacrificed and only by our high priest on our behalf (Yom Kippur). Yeshua our Passover lamb.
I enjoy our dialog - blessings in Messiah!
p.s. Ever wonder why all the tedious details on how to approach G-d in the Torah? They all pointed to the Holiness of G-d and our inability to ever make it on our own. We need our high priest to make atonement for us. We cannot build a tower to G-d, he must drop down a (Jacob's) ladder down to us and pull us up. We need the UNDESERVED mercy Joseph showed his brothers.