JFJ Forums

To Chad Higgins:

That is ridiculous.  

The Muslims don't have a problem because Moshe Rosen doesn't claim to be Muslim.  So your argument here is completely pointless.

Now now... why so judgemental???

A very small sliver of Jews within the smallest sects of Jews does this... and they are considered heretical to the rest of Judaism.  So no... Judaism does not worship a man.  Not at all.

And the Jewish people, above all others, express this in momumental ways.  From the food that they eat, to the clothes that they wear, to the language they speak... etc. etc. etc... Jews worship G-d in every aspect of their lifestyle.


That makes no sense at all.

Because if he is right then the very name of this organization is deceptive.  So, it is an important discussion.

However, I disagree with his standards (but only slightly).  I think one can be Jewish (religiously) as long as they don't revere a man as G-d, and as long as they uphold the Torah.  Once you cross one of those lines you are no longer practicing Judaism and no longer are Jewish.

Do you tell your atheist Jewish friends they are no longer Jews?  What about the new agers, or the liberal Jews who only follow Jewish customs, but don't really believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as revealed in the Tanakh?

Hopefully you see my point.  There is a double standard.  Those folks are still considered Jews by the Jewish community, but Messianic Jews are not...

Blessings in Messiah simchat_torah!

The difference is that those people are not worshipping a man, which is a very fundamental difference.  They can begin growing in Torah.  But messianic idolaters are still Jews if born Jewish.  However, they are certainly not practicing Judaism and are not living Jewishly.

Welcome to the forum Ani Maaamin,

Thank you for your candor, but many go much farther and say Messianic Jews are no longer Jewish.  Your position is much more rational and consistent.

As to Messianic believers (Jew and Gentile) worshiping a man - you misunderstand our faith.  We worship the one true G-d YHWY, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  But we recognize the Scriptures teach G-d is complex in his echad (he is not yachid).  We also recognize that he has on several occaisions manifest himself (tabernacled with us) in various physical ways: sound waves, light, clouds, fire, and even as men.  Check out our thread on the Angel of YHWY.  Search the Scriptures for all the places the Angel of YHWY is called YHWH and has divine attributes - there are many.  Search for the places where folks have seen and talked to (even wrestled) with G-d face to face - there are many.  G-d has on many occaisions tabernacled with man (Immanuel) in the form of a man in the Tanakh.  He even promised his Messiah would be G-d himself - El Gibbor (Isaiah 9:6), eternal (Micah 5:2) and be G-d with us (Isaiah 7:14).  And that Messiah came in the 1st century - Immanuel.   Yes, we believe Yeshua was G-d manifest in the flesh to tabernacle with us.

For clarification, we DO NOT believe G-d is a man or a man can be G-d, rather that G-d manifest himself in the form of a man, the Redeemer Messiah (Yeshua) as he has done in the past to Abraham, Jacob, Joshua, etc.  This complex (triune) G-d of the Tanakh is who we serve.

Many more details can be found in the various threads here.

Shalom!

I think you missed a rather crucial portion of my post.  I made a clear distinction between the three forms of "Jewish".  The various forms are Cultural, Religious, and Racial.  No, an athiest Jew is still Jewish culturally and racially, though they have abandoned their religious faith... they are not Jewish religiously.  The same holds true for one who is a Messianic or Christian:  They are Jewish culturally (if they so choose) and racially (this can never be taken away), but they are no longer following Judaism.
[quote]Hopefully you see my point.  There is a double standard.  Those folks are still considered Jews by the Jewish community, but Messianic Jews are not...
[quote]No double standard, you merely missed reading an  important portion of my post.

Thanks for the clarification.  There are many traditional Jews that don't use the categories as you did though.  They will merely say Messianic believers are no longer Jews, but they will still consider atheistic, new age, etc Jews still Jews.  They will even go as far as booting Messianic belivers out of the family, maybe even having funerals.  But the same folks wouldn't do that when their family members become atheists, etc.  That's the double standard I'm referring to.  Anyway, you've explained that isn't your position though!  Thanks for the clarification.

While the few full time employees of J4J are Jews the overwhelming vast majority of their organization relies upon those witnessing in the street... few (if any) that I've met are Jewish... which presents a false impression on those of us who see the organization in a public face.

Does this not present a problem with the name "Jews for Jesus"?

This seems to be a common theme with Messianic groups-
they are overwhelmingly gentile, if the forums I see are
any indication of the make up of the Messianic movement....

When Jews for Jesus witness on the streets with Gentile volunteers, the majority of people are Jewish.

When some Gentiles do participate along side Jews for Jesus, Gentiles where t-shirts which identify as Gentile. For Behold Your God, in many places Gentiles wore t-shirts which said 'Not just Jews for Jesus'. Other times Gentiles who have volunteered have worn 'Goyim for Jesus' t-shirts or 'Jesus made me Kosher'.

When Jews for Jesus witness on the streets with Gentile volunteers, the majority of people are Jewish.

When some Gentiles do participate along side Jews for Jesus, Gentiles where t-shirts which identify as Gentile. For Behold Your God, in many places Gentiles wore t-shirts which said 'Not just Jews for Jesus'. Other times Gentiles who have volunteered have worn 'Goyim for Jesus' t-shirts or 'Jesus made me Kosher'.

This is were I came from
In the Jehovah witness they also do this ?