JFJ Forums - The Gap Between Death and 100% Holiness

CustomDesigned Wrote:

I was visiting at an Assembly of God Sunday school class. The lesson was on "sanctification". The class was taught by the pastor who, having been an engineer prior to ordination, drew a graph depicting "holiness" over time. The idea was that holiness increases from the moment of new birth until physical death, but doesn't achieve 100%. The graph showed a gap after death, and then 100% holiness in the new Heavens and new Earth with new resurrected body. Raising my hand, I asked (because I actually track the varying terms people use for theological concepts), "what do you call the gap between death and 100% holiness?" That stumped the pastor, and everyone else there, and the discussion was thoroughly sidetracked. After a few minutes, I volunteered, "The Catholics call it Purgatory".

Dead silence for about 10 seconds. Then pandemonium broke loose with everyone talking at once. The pastor excused himself to get ready for the next sermon.

The above was posted on a thread in 'Roman Catholicsm'. As a member of the Assemblies of God myself, I felt it my duty to inform the AOG UK Headquarters of this post due to it having appeared on the internet for anyone to read. I have also discussed the post with three other AOG Ministers. The general reaction is the story lacks credibility; perhaps the author could identify the AOG Assembly where this alledged incident took place. The AOG or its Assemblies have no difficulty addressing this question, and positively reject the suggestion of a mythical purgatory or that there is a 'biblical gap' between death and holiness

In the meantine, does any other member here who belongs to any Church/Assembly/Denomination have a problem with viz.....

Quote:

"what do you call the gap between death and 100% holiness?"

DavidJ

A person of my like background would say something like, what gap, absent from the body, present with the Lord; at death we finally are rid of our old man, the old nature.

Way to be sharp about addressing something that sounded unlikely to you.

My first reading of that account struck me as, I know of no pastor that would be unable to answer a question on the very subject he prepared for class and subsequently leave his class in "pandemonium" like that. It sounds more like a pipe dream.

I am kind of afraid to get into this one because it might be grabbing the dog by the ears.

So, Being more of a Baptist I will say I have been to Assemblies of God worship services, which seem in many ways similar to Baptist.

Could it be that Pentecostals want to talk about doctrine but might be baffled or stunned by "theology"?

Like I said, I don't want to get in the awkward possition of talking about something out of my league, but to anyone who wants a general answer to this my one would be that the Pauline Epistles talk over and over again about justification by faith.  I think it is 1 John 4:10 that talks about propitiation.  Correct me if I am wrong, I haven't thought or read in theology in a long time, but this just means we are covered by the sacrifice of the perfect lamb of God, the blood covering.

Again at risk of makeing an assumption, one possible explainatioin could be Assemblys of God has alot of new converts from the Catholic church in many cases so maybe this is a good problem?  Maybe a newly saved Sunday school teacher in Texas with Mexican imigrants doesn't have the theological background like well educated people in the U.K.?

By saying this I am in no way dispariageing any ethnic group.  I have heard many fine theologically sharp Latino preachers.

In conclusion, any congregation that has an over emphasis on holiness might need to revisit the doctrines of the Protestant Reformation, Justification by faith, propitiation and others.

I actually love this quesiton

When I went to a Billy Grahm crusade training weekend we had a church administration guy give a case scenario but this one is more exciteing.

Here are the factors involved in dealing with this problem.

1) What is the theological training of the pastor?

2) Is this a "problem" congregation?

3) Why is the pastor teaching sunday school?

I have preached sermons and it is exhausting.  Engineiers are not always the best at interpersonal and group dynamics stuff.  Part of what happened could have been that it was a bomb droped with not enough time for a long answer.  Some things you don't want to sound bite.

A denominational offician might be brought in to sort it all out.

4) Is the church haveing other theological controverys; is this why the pastor him self is teaching the class.

5)How old is the pastor?

6) Is it a mission church or a church over 80 years in existance?

7) What is the size of the Church?

One last thing.  When I was a 20 something preacher I never imagined the gray haired clever deacons sitting in front of me might actually be out to get me.  I never made the connection with the things in the Bible about people makeing plots in God's temple and stuff in proverbs about how evil people see makeing the righteous fall as a group sport applied to me.

I am out of the ministry.  Most pastors are too busy running their machines to  mess with JFJ blog posts.

DavidJ Wrote:

CustomDesigned Wrote:

"what do you call the gap between death and 100% holiness?"

The answer is easy: it's called grace.

There is no gap between death and 100% holiness. Christ has already covered our sins. The graph in question may lead one to believe that there is a gap. However, we know that anyone who accepts Christ has salvation; therefore, they were called, justified, sanctified (made holy), and later glorified. Sanctification is both a process (we are daily conformed to the image of our Christ) and a one-time deal (it has no endpoint that someone has to reach in order to "make it").

This is, of course, different than the Catholic view where salvation is not complete, holiness and all God's free gifts have to be earned, eternal security is always in doubt, and many never really find Yeshua, the narrow gate to enter in by. If Catholics would use their Bibles for practical rather than aesthetic purposes, they might understand this.

CustomDesigned Wrote:

That stumped the pastor, and everyone else there, and the discussion was thoroughly sidetracked. After a few minutes, I volunteered, "The Catholics call it Purgatory".

The problem with this answer is that it puts you in the same place as you were before (not able to attain holiness on your own--you still have the "gap") and it diminishes the holiness of God (who lives in approachable light) by suggesting that one can become as holy as God. Not only that, to get out of purgatory you must do one of two things: convince Mary to retrieve the half-sinner out or have others pay the half-sinner out. In either case, you have rejected Christ's work, have substituted someone else to do the work that Christ did that was rejected initially, and have substituted a creation's holiness for the Creator's holiness. Sounds like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to me.

How holy does one have to be before God accepts you? The answer for any Protestant should be easy: 0%. All our righteous deeds are filthy rags, and Christ died for us while we were still sinners. "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). No purgatory is the Biblical position.

Good post revelation320....I would also add that the infilling of the Holy Ghost which is Jesus in us is changing us daily as we pray and exercise ourselves in the Holy Ghost. It will be God in us which will translate us on the day of the Rapture whether we are in the grave or alive.

Amen, Prophet.

Isn't that ironic? Usually we translate a word, but the Word will translate us!

revelation320 Wrote:

.........How holy does one have to be before God accepts you? The answer for any Protestant should be easy: 0%. All our righteous deeds are filthy rags, and Christ died for us while we were still sinners. "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). No purgatory is the Biblical position...........

Wonderful! Praise be to God! Thanks be to Jesus! Amen!

Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
Here for a season, then above,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

DavidJ

I love that hymn. Good call, David J.

DavidJ Wrote:

revelation320 Wrote:

.........How holy does one have to be before God accepts you? The answer for any Protestant should be easy: 0%. All our righteous deeds are filthy rags, and Christ died for us while we were still sinners. "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). No purgatory is the Biblical position...........

Wonderful! Praise be to God! Thanks be to Jesus! Amen!

Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thy love unknown
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
Here for a season, then above,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

DavidJ

Very nice.