JFJ Forums

I'm new here.  I just signed up today.  I'm a mother of three little girls...ages  9, 8 and 6.  I needed a place to "escape"; a place to find myself spiritually.  I need help.  I need clarification.  I need the perspective from the honorable Jew whether they be Orthodox or Messianic.  I feel God uses both.  And I need a perspective from the Gentile.  I was born and raised Christian.  Everything done the "Christian" way.  You know, anyone who did not believe in Jesus was doomed the hell."  We've all heard the story right?  Well, over the last four years, I have done a lot of self examination.  I personally do believe in Yeshua as my Lord and Savior...for I am a Gentile.  My Jewish friends, and most are Orthodox have referred to my family as "righteous Gentiles".  My family does observe Shabbat.  I have questioned the motive in my life with the whole Christmas tree thing, easter thing, etc....  I feel lost.  No place of foundation right now.  I have found though that when I place my feet FIRMLY one on each side..that things begin to come to life for me.   I absolutely ADORE the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.  My husband does much work there helping the hungry, poor, and just plain helping our friends there in any way that we can.  We have developed such a closeness.  We don't put them down or pressure them to believe in the Messiah as our family does; nor do they pressure us NOT to believe in Him.  I am a Gentile; therefore, Jesus came for ME to save ME.  Can I answer for the Jews?  No, I cannot.  Jesus himself spoke in Matthew 9:12-13 "On hearin this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.  But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  For I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners."  Can any of you clarify that for me?  So he said it himself.  Who ARE THE RIGHTEOUS he is referring to here?  Perhaps God did have a plan and tell me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to debate but get insight to understand.   The Jews who remain religious have a desire to love God right?  THey study the Torah and live by it, right?  So is that perhaps their plan of salvation that God had intended for them?  And for Gentiles and any other wicked, perhaps our plan of salvation is Jesus?  I ponder it and get confused.  I have pulled myself away from church as I have known it because I have grown tired of hearing basically "it's our way or the hellway"  I don't believe that.  God will have mercy on whom he chooses and He will harden the hearts of whom He chooses.  But can anyone clarify that scripture for me?  I feel in desperate need of help.   God bless each and every one of you.
Shalom!

Don't be tricked into thinking that you have to keep the Mosaic law in order to be righteous and do good works. Anything that you do with faith and mercy counts as good works (Genesis 15:6, Hosea 6:6, Mark 7:7-13, Acts 15, Romans 2, 14; Galatians 1-5, Titus 1:14).

Your gonna get a lot of differing views here regarding this. And, for the record, I am a gentile.

Here's the thing, blood sacrifice was the covering/atonement that was performed and established by God, way before the Nation of Israel existed. Gen 3.

Abel performed it, Cain didn't, and slew Abel out of jealousy.

God commanded Noah to take "extra" clean animals with him, still no nation of Israel.

Job even gave sacrifices on behalf of his children... (like a priest will do later after the Law is given)

It was always intended to be a "religion" based on faith and grace. None of the Patriarchs after the Law was goven, were able to be fully obedient, if not obedient, they were sinners. (The definition of sin.) They all relied on God's mercy and grace.

There is one salvation: grace throught faith, because no one can be obedient. No one, that is, except for the One prophesied about in Isaiah 53.

And we are grafted together, not separate, into one salvation: Yeshua, for all those who believe on Him. And no other name (not just literal name, but also "authority") by which one can be saved.

Rabbincal Judaism is not the Judaism of the Bible. Not practiced by Moses or David or Elijah. They understood mercy and grace. Rabbinical Judaism says "we don't need it because we are obedient", earning salvation instead: the antithesis of grace.

My two cents, my sister. Welcome!

This post started kind of funny but I have to answer Shannok totally serious.

Here are some things that help me with this dilema.

One sure way to go to hell is to worship and idol.  I always wondered what sin unto death was in 1 john 5:16.  But now I think it is to worship an Idol.  For Americans we don't have litteral Idols so we have no point of reference, neither do Jews.  

This might not be the best place to go for sympathy on the Jews saved by Torah idea.  JFJ juxtaposes it self to John Hagee spin on this.

One way to look at it is that the good man in Romans 2 is a hypothetical man.  This is clarified in Romans 3 with the charges, as if a prosecutors list, of how Jew and Gentile fall short.

Sorry I can't answer this concisely.  Maybe you should read some J. I. Packer books.

Shannock,
You have a sincere heart and posed a great question. Ask yourself this:  Would Y'shua have come to die on a cross and suffer all He suffered to pay for our sins if there were ANY other way of salvation for mankind?

Thank you all very much.  Very interesting points.  But I still have one question.  "Who are the Righteous" Jesus was referring to in Matthew?  I can't figure out who he is speaking of.  THank you for welcoming me.  I can see you are a great group of people.
God Bless and Keep you.  :-)

Shannonk,

I am by no means a Orthodox Jew, just a "returning" Jew.

The Jewish people follow the Word that was given to them at Mt. Sinai. We know G-d gave us ALL and EVERYTHING we need in His Torah.

There is nothing more or less to add for us to His Book of Instructions.

That is our Bible which we abide by.

I cannot answer your "Righteous" question because I do not study the gt.

I do know that in the Hebrew Bible, many are called righteous. So we believe you CAN be righteous without being "perfect".

King Solomon reiterates this when he says;

Proverbs 24:
16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, but the wicked stumble under adversity

Shannock, in the introduce your self part of this forum I think there is another mother of young children who is like you.  She feels a magnetic pull to national israel though born Christian and feels confused.

1) Everything is in flux as it is still new for the CHurch to get in touch with jewish roots and get a degree of jewish flavor to worship and things.  But is should settle down some time maybe a few years.

2) The Romans 3 passage I refered to with the prosecotors type list starts out saying there are none righteous.  

3) PRinciple of law oriented religion may actually be Idolotry that focuses on men who are considered worthy.

4) Children born before the age of accountability don't go to hell in most evangelical theologies.

5) Jesus celebrated Hanuka in John 11, something that is not in the Hebew bible.  We can do things that are not in the bible as long as they are not contradicting the bible, and if they have a pagan origin they can still be used as long as the meaning is changed to a Biblical meaning such as a tree used for paganism meaning something different.  

6) But if you woundln't care to have a tree and feel compeled to Judaism then you might want to convert to Messianic Judaism.

Thanks for that insight.  That is where I struggle and get confused.  I hear it preached in my church for instance the Trinity.  The pastor will say Jesus is God, God is the Son, etc., etc., etc.,  Okay, I personally do not believe in the trinity the same way because if God was the Son, then all creation would have died on the cross with Him, right?  But I do believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit work in unison.  So, that brings me back to my confusion....Jesus said that he came not to call the "righteous" but the wicked, right?  So if a lot of the Jews were/are considered "righteous" in the eyes of God, and if we as Gentiles believe in the Trinity, then wouldn't those who are considered "righteous" already have salvation?  Am I being way hard to follow here?   I'm just trying to get clarity...no debates...just answers.  And while we can sometimes agree to disagree, it is still so awesome knowing that we all look to the same Creator and Almighty!  That's so great!  

9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax booth. “Follow me,” he said to him. And he got up and followed him. 9:10 As Jesus was having a meal in Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with Jesus and his disciples. 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 9:12 When Jesus heard this he said, “Those who are healthy don’t need a physician, but those who are sick do. 9:13 Go and learn what this saying means: ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Jesus’ point is that he associates with those who are sick because they have the need and will respond to the offer of help. A person who is healthy (or who thinks mistakenly that he is) will not seek treatment.

Did the Pharisees think they were righteous? Yes. Did they need Jesus' help? Yes. Did they seek His help as the sinners did? No.