JFJ Forums

I'm confused.

If jc said " For I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners.", then to me he is saying that there ARE righteous people and at that time there WERE righteous people.

If that is the case, they were righteous BEFORE jc arrived. How can that be? I thought xtians believe you cannot attain righteousness yourself. Did they lose their righteousness when jc was born to only gain it back if they believed in jc?

Have you ever heard of hyperbole?

Jesus didn't come to save the *truly* righteous. If one can compare to God's righteousness, then he can freely enter into the Holy of Holies himself without atonement. However, as of yet, no one can make that claim, because "our righteousnes is like filthy rags". "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Even Moses. Even David. Even you. Even me. The point being that the ones who think they are righteous by their works obviously don't (think they) need to be saved.

As for gentiles being righteous because they hold to the Trinity, well... they aren't righteous until AFTER they accept Jesus. Our faith, like Abraham's, has been accredited to us *as* righteousness, we don't have true righteousness like God's...AND, in addition, we are now clothed/covered with Jesus' righteousness.

SMR:
Thanks for the explanation.

Shannock:

Wow! you threw out a real zinger, the trinity.

I would recomend reading some heavy theology books for this problem.

Because of your love for Israel I would recomend Dr. Browns books, a foremost debater of Messianics in enguageing Rabinical Judaism.

Chad,

I didn't say I was "questioning" or did not believe in the Trinity.  I simply said that the way it has been explained before in MY church is not the same way I believe.  I absolutely believe in God, the Father, Christ the Son and of course the Holy Spirit.  I believe that they all three work in unison.  I don't know if I believe they are all the same person.  Here is why:

1)  If God and the Son were the same, all creation would died with him on the cross, right?  Am I wrong?  I could be of course.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

2)  If we all believe in the trinity THE WAY MY CHUCH explained it, then all the Jews would be saved already, right?  Especially if Jesus and God are the same once again...AS EXPLAINED IN MY CHURCH...I'm not saying that is the case.

3)  When Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, was he praying to himself??  He addressed "Father".  He said he came as PRINCE of Peace.  He always referred to Torah and his Father.  Everytime we see where he speaks and says "As it is written......"

That's all I'm saying.  I don't doubt trinity in itself.  I just happen to believe it a bit differently than the way it was explained to me by someone in my church.  That's all.  I'm not looking for debate.  Just sharing.  But I do thank you for offering the resources.  
Have a blessed day.

Shalom Shannonk,
I had problems with the Christian 'Trinity' also.  Years passed, until I reversed my thought.  Three making up one, didn't work in my head.  One presenting self as three does make sense (sort of like: Me, Myself, and I).

When I started thinking: God as the Father, God as the Son, God as the Holly Spirit, my concern for understanding Him ceased, and my love for Him exploded into overflowing.

Some, maybe many will disagree with me.  I offer this as food for thought, and even possibly an answer for your heart.

In Messiah, Shalom, to you, and one and all.  Arley

(I am still waiting for a JFJ boss-person to plug in a 'spell-check' for my spelling deficient fingers....Help 'someone in charge')

Thanks, Arley.
It is truly something I have battled for years.  LIke I said, I truly believe in all three, but the whole "being the same person" still gets a bit confusing.  I often refer to hearing that Catholic chant when they are doing their rosary. I don't of course know it word for word but they repeat "mother of God".  That really offends me because, God doesn't have a mother.  That is where it all tends to be a bit confusing for me.

I also get confused because I have never read in the scriptures where Jesus said I am the Father.  I know he has said " I am in the Father and the Father is in me."  But doesn't that go for all of us who believe?  I also am in the Father and He in me through His Son.  Does that make any sense or am I "rambling??"  It wouldn't be the first time.  

Thank you for the words of wisdom, I truly appreciate your insight and see the love of God within you.  
Your Sister in Christ!  Shannon

Righteousness is always and only imputed. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. None of the OT patriarchs were blameless. Only God is righteous. They all were considered righteous because of their faith in God to be faithful, even when they were not. It has always been GRACE, which, by definition, is something we (Jew or Gentile) cannot earn. And MERCY, which is "not getting what we really deserve": eternal separation from Him. Suspended sentence, in other words.

Remember that contained in Torah is sacrifice. If being obedient was *all* that was necessary, why sacrifice? That covers our sin and imputes righteousness. Culminating/completed in the once-and-for-all Sacrifice of Messiah, the Lamb that God provided for the sin of the world.

-cont-

-cont-

The OT patriarchs may not have understood ALL the details, but they believed God, anyway.

Build an ark, I'm sending rain. I believe you, God. ~Noah
You will be the father of many nations. I believe you, God. ~Abraham
You will deliver my people out of captivity. I believe you, God. ~Moses
I believe God will slay this giant. ~David
I beleive God will open my womb. ~Hannah
I believe God wants His Temple restored. ~Nehemiah
Tell the people I will send One who will be pierced for our transgressions. I believe you, God. ~Isaiah

Etc, etc, etc.

So, maybe "the righteous" Jesus is speaking of are like our patriarchs. They didn't know the details, but believed God: Simeon, for one: Luke 1, CJB:  There was in Yerushalayim a man named Shim`on. This man was a tzaddik, he was devout, he waited eagerly for God to comfort Isra'el, and the Ruach HaKodesh was upon him.  It had been revealed to him by the Ruach HaKodesh that he would not die before he had seen the Messiah of ADONAI. Prompted by the Spirit, he went into the Temple courts; and when the parents brought in the child Yeshua to do for him what the Torah required, Shim`on took him in his arms, made a b'rakhah to God, and said, "Now, ADONAI, according to your word, your servant is at peace as you let him go; for I have seen with my own eyes your yeshu`ah, which you prepared in the presence of all peoples -- a light that will bring revelation to the Goyim and glory to your people Isra'el."

Simeon believed God would do what He said He would.

We see clearly in the NT that there were many who did not believe God. He didn't do it "their way". Same with today.

John 5:46 CJB: "For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote."

Trinity:




The concept of the Trinity is not that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person, but that they are distinctly separate persons forming one Triune God: YHWH echad (Deut. 6:4).

Jesus did not say He was/is the Father. He did say though, that He is I AM/YHWH. John 8:58

As for "mother of God", I reject that and go with what Mary herself said: Luke 1:38~ Miryam said, "I am the servant of ADONAI; may it happen to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.