JFJ Forums

Excellent question ! The True Chruch was started by DEVOUT JEWS IN JERUSALEM ON A JEWISH FESTIVAL.

The True Church is Church that Jesus is building, "I will build MY church -and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)

Jesus commenced the building of His True Church on the day of Pentecost - a Jewish religious festival - by Jews, "On the day of Pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place ......At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem....“Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15 These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that.  No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:
  ‘In the last days,’ God says,
      ‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
   Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
      Your young men will see visions,
      and your old men will dream dreams.
  In those days I will pour out my Spirit
      even on my servants—men and women alike—
      and they will prophesy.
  And I will cause wonders in the heavens above
      and signs on the earth below—
      blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
The sun will become dark,
      and the moon will turn blood red
      before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.
  But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
      will be saved.’

  “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene.....

Read Acts 2

David

The Catholic Church does not teach that if you are not part of the Church, you cease to be Christian.  In case you are ever willing to read what the Catholic Church actually does teach, I suggest you consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).  In this document, you will see evidence from both scripture and 2000 years of Christian history that support CC teachings.  Here is a link to an on-line version:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

The CC understanding of brothers and sisters in Christ, not in communion with the CC is described here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#817

You can read this and see that the attitude of Catholics towards those outside the CC is far more charitable than many other Christian’s attitude towards Catholics.  I’ve seen comments in this forum asserting that Catholics are not Christian.

Regarding the comment: “I would go so far to say that one of the ways we know that a "church denomination" is false is it's claim to sole authority”…..  Are you saying that “church denomination” claiming it is an authoritative source of truth is anti-biblical?  This isn’t what Paul has to say.  In fact, he calls the Church the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth” (1 Tim 3:15).  To the best of my knowledge, it is only the CC that claims infallibility in matters of faith.  What other “church denominations” make this claim?  If it is “everyone who believes in the messiah” then what are we to make of all the doctrinal splits in Christianity?  Which denomination is teaching “truth”?  And when was the last time the CC forced it’s teachings upon you???

Regarding post #13 – Kurt – can you please provide primary source evidence of these claims?

Regarding the Pope and Hitler … there are many Jews who have a far less anti-Catholic view of “Hitler’s Pope”.  Here are some links if one cares to read an opposing view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler's_Pope
http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius...D_JEWS.asp

Note that, unlike most anti-Catholic literature, the later link is actually documented with footnotes revealing authentic sources.

No, I am saying that a church that claims to have SOLE authority is.

I said it here:

Ripley's




O.K. I see your view.
There are only some weaknesses to that. Aswell as on the First gathering where DavidJ talks about....
Church means a gathering of people... So not just every person by himself can be a church or learn how to act ethically or according to scripture etc. So A church must somehow be a denomination (but can be very open).

Secondly, a Sole person still can believe much easier that he has the complete right way to live, the truth etc. and also a single person will try to influence other people with often a level of authoritative speaking of behavior.

a signle person can be ethicall, heroistic etc. o.k. But by that he might be less powerfull to save people etc. But a single person is not a Church... And in times of war etc. what kind of single christians group together without any groupspirit or tactics how to help others? They still might have different views on pacifism and other borders etc.

The weakness of protestantism was also that it was very easy... That every person or church was responsible for his own policy...
Well some StateChruches of German States decided to join Hitler, and kicked all the Messianic Jews out of Church. in Other German States, the StateChurch did not decide so...
Than it becomes harder after the war to blame 1 unity for it, like the Catholic Church (who also did different things per region). So almost every Protestant Church had to be balanced after the war and what there policy was, and be judged by that... that gave much more work. And it is easier to hide responsibility....

No. In the beginning it was only Messianic Jews. Then gentiles came in also, and each had different practices, but same beliefs. So, there were two "denominations", both together "the church", from the beginning of the church.




Not at all. We (which I stated was all believers, together, comprising "the church", not one person, or one denomination) are accountable to eachother. And are supposed to hold eachother to what the scriptures teach. Support eachother. Correct eachother. Above all: love eachother.

Ripley thanks...



But that seemed allready very quickly the case... when first Jesus compares the non-Jews with Dogs... against the SyroPhenisian lady... And that because she ''eats'' the breadcrumbs...'' She is a gentile believer... So during Jesus there is allready 1 Church, correct? Instead of 2 dominations?
It was later that a lot of ''Dogs'' started to claim the main meal, and pretended that the Jewish believers didn't had the correct ''food''.?
Well I keep my meditaranian diet...

Besides that, aswel as Church as Synagogue from the greek mean gathering of people... whatever small social group that ment. A group of the same kind of believers in Corinth and 1000kilometers further in Jerusalem is not 1 gathering... (so officially not 1 church...) but o.k. I understand your point.



Only to eachother, that sound like a lot of self-love...
I think you don't mean it that way... but it is exactly the lack of responsibility the protestants lack more than the catholics. The Catholics talk and correct themselves about ''foreign policies''

So my question is than... what did the good believers do after the war, to correct the believers who didn't act correctly???  Or suddenly because they didn't act correctly...: 'those where not Christians''   In that way I often heard Christians not taking responsibility for their actions...  ''Yaeh, O, ''WE'' that is a vague term of people who are realy believers...
If I hear Christians say... ''he didn't gave Jews food, becaus he was affraid of his own life...''  I can live with that...
But if I hear some Christians say... ''he didn't gave Jews food, because he was not realy a Christian then, and didn't act in a Christian mannour... but don't blame me for I am a better understanding Christian. And don't blame Christianity for that man that didn't give food.'' That is what I can't live with....  It is just twisting and turning..,

I don't say you do it.
But it could be a result of the Fylosophy: ''the real Christians take care of eachother''

Also under this Title a command:

In 1988 I was in Kroatia and Slovenia... Just a year before the war started between those 2 provinces...
When the Serbians started to bomb the Kroatian Churches.... in the beginning of the war...
Suddenly... after 44 years after WW-II the Arch Bishop of Yugoslavia remembered (remembered suddenly???) That the Katholic-Kroatian killing of 1 million Serbs was actually a mistake that the Church shouldn't have sponsored...

I'm sorry but it is another proof that leftwing rabbi's can try to study in Katholic Univesities and try to write a nicer part about the history. But that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

What you, Ripley's, said is a boldfaced slander. There were two denominations: the Jewish and gentile Christian (Messianic Jewish and gentile people) denomination, and the Judaizers who were both Jewish and gentile (Acts 15, Romans 2, 14; Galatians 1-5).

Yetzirah,

Interesting observations.  When some people talk about the Church, they mean the collection of all believers.  But others do not see it only in this way but rather see it as having multiple characteristics.  

Scripture shows us that Jesus and his Apostles prayed for and strived for unity within “the church”.  I do not believe the “collection of all believers” as it exists today, with it’s multitudes of denominations, is in a unified state.  (kind of like the divided kingdom of Israel in the O.T.).

Others see the Church, in addition to the collection of all believers, as something a bit more tangible.  Orthodox Christians also believe in a more structured, visible church where God granted it the authority to bind and loose (Mt 16, Mt 18:17-18), to be a pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim3:15), that he granted it an “al-bayit” (Is 22:22, Mt 16), and more.  The early church held councils (Acts15) to assure unity, to fight heresy, and to ensure a consistent set of scripture.

Orthodox Christians also believe in Apostolic succession which is derived from the Jewish practice of “Semicha”.  Leaders of the church are ordained by the power of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands by other leaders.  Extra-biblical evidence of this practice within the church goes back to the late first century.  Biblical evidence to support this is Numbers 27:17ff, Dt 34:9, Acts 1:20,25-26, 14:23, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 2:2, Titus 1:5-9.

As you might expect, these beliefs are disputed by members of other denominations.  This was the topic of much discussion in another thread starting around post # 76 (http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/showthrea...amp;page=8).  In this thread I go into more detailed characteristics of how Orthodox Christians, particularly Catholicism understand “the church”.

Thanks Wkirscher,

I read it... and will think it over.
I have some Catholic friends... and I must say that it is often easier to debate relgion with them, but more deep and sometimes confronting eachother... But seriously religious people...

The Semicha thing in Apostolic succession sound interesting to dive into...