JFJ Forums

They both subscribe to a religion based on faith. We both practice what we do based on what we believe happened thousands of years ago. As an orthodox jew I believe that the torah was given in an oral and written form. I believe that much of the oral torah has been recorded in the talmud.

Now, based on a study of the oral and written torah it is clear that at the time that the sanhedrin was still in place, they had a lot of power. In deuteronomy the torah even declares a death penalty to those who openly rebel against their rulings.

Another thing that we have in common is our belief that the sanhedrin ruled that jesus was guilty of sins worthy of the death penalty. It sounds like this case was closed 2000 years ago. I've heard claims that the sanhedrin at the time was corrupt but A I do not believe them. B Even if that were true, one would still be obligated to listen to their rulings until that corruption was proven in court. We can't just rebel against sanhedrin every time there is allegations of corruption.

These are my beliefs, and obviously they are totally incompatible with christianity. My question is, how can JFJ go about refuting them with out tearing down the basis for their own religion? If you quote me OT scripture as proof, I will tell you that I interpret them differently based on the oral torah. NT scripture is obviously meaningless to me. And if you were to tell me that my beliefs outlined above are simply not true, that I do not have sufficient reason to believe them, then you will have a hard time proving sufficient reason to believe in christianity.

I am not a Jew. Want to state that up front.

But may I ask you if you wouldn't be guilty of circular reasoning? Especially given that even your authoritative sages don't agree on what scriptures "really say"? How do you decide who is actually "correct"?

I know how I do it; I compare opinions to the written scripture.

FTR~ I don't see the Sanhedrin so much as "corrupt", but that they had an expectation of what Messiah would be, and when Jesus didn't fill that expectation (like today, conquering King), they failed to search deeper before rejecting Him. They desired so much a Deliverer that they failed to see the Suffering Servant. Then their hearts were hardened, like Pharoah. Just my take on it.

PART I



Orthodox Judaism is not a religion based on faith.  
It is based on logic and facts, and then by extension a level of trust develops based on this.




There is some disagreement among modern scholars if the Talmud is referring to Jesus at all.  The Rishonim talk about a man named Jesus who lived in 130 BCE.  If he did, he probably had nothing to do with the alleged character that was around in 30 CE.




For a brief period, the Sanhedrin contained members of the Sadducees (usually it was the Av Beis Din).  However, this was fixed long before 30 CE.  The Sanhedrin as defined in the Talmud is 100% reliable.




1.  The allegations are not justified.  There is no evidence anywhere that the Sanhedrin was corrupt, and its rulings are wrong.  The opposite.  The facts are, that there has been 100% unanimous acceptance of its rulings, by all of Israel.  No-one has ever disputed their rulings.  Even Jesus declared that you should follow the teachers of the Law (Cf. Matthew 5:17-24).

2.  In normal countries, like America, you can't go around telling people that the Supreme Court is corrupt.  You could be sued for defamation.  It is a serious charge to label such a court as corrupt.  If you're right, you have to have solid, unbreakable proof, with incontrovertible evidence.
Those that wish to say that any court, including the Sanhedrin is corrupt, need to have strong evidence.  Anything that can be used against this allegation, to break it has to be refuted.  

PART II




You're incorrect.  These are not your beliefs.  These are statements that require better explanation, and clarification.  Once they are clarified, they can be shown to be facts or fair assessments of data and information.

Belief is for people who don't have facts and wish to speculate based on their own (incorrect?) opinions.  Orthodox Judaism is very focussed on clarity, and obtaining true facts, before analysis, and conclusions are made.




Please provide citation that when JFJ asserts refutations against rabbinic Judaism, it is also tearing down the basis of their own religion.




Which is unhelpful.  What you need to show is that without the Oral Torah, there is no Tanakh to begin with.  The word Tzitzis is a case in point.  You  won't find a translation or explanation of what the word means anywhere.  You are forced to listen to the Rabbi's and their explanation to understand the words.  Anyone who does the research into this word will discover this point.

In short, the whole raison d'etre for the Tanakh is the Oral Torah, they are intrinsic to each other.




The NT might be meaningless, but it seems many members on this forum have a hard time removing its interpretation from analysis.  I like to try to encourage people to imagine the world before Jesus came - say 250 BCE.  Was Judaism true or not?  Everyone should agree that Judaism is true.

If this is the case, why change the status quo? Where do I see that in 32 CE, G-d is unhappy with His people?  I don't, all I see is that in 70 CE, G-d destroys the Temple.  Not 32 CE.

Danny.

Yeshayahu spoke candidly about Talmud, and was later remembered by Y'shua ben-Miryam (Yeshayahu 29:13-14, Mark 7, Galatians 1:6-9).

Ripley's

It's not that they "They desired so much a Deliverer that they failed to see the Suffering Servant."


Although I agree that they did desire a deliverer, it is the prophets that promise one. So why wouldn't they desire one?

There are many verses from the prophets that back up their "desire".

That is the same desire we have today, and if I'm not mistaken, so do xtians. They do so truly desire peace in this world, do they not?

I would think most would.

I read something different....

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

  I do think the "thing" we have in common is faith, or belief. We trust scripture (I am speaking of the Tanakh) to be the Word of God. This is the only scripture Jesus had. I doubt Paul considered his own writings equal to the oracles of God. We trust that godly men spoke and wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them. We have evidence through scripture and secular writings that occurrences in the bible are true and accurate. Trust and faith have everything to do with evidence and convincing proof. Only a fool would trust without evidence or proof. Scripture, both OT and NT is proof and evidence that God is trustworthy. We can trust God to save us or kill us according to what we know of Him through scripture.

Shalom,
Christopher

Please provide citation of the circular reasoning that you are saying there is.




1.  This is a misnomer.  Who says they disagree?  
Most of the time, the disagreements are not disagreements, but just different ways of looking at a particular aspect of something.  
2.  Disagreement is the wrong word.  What Jews call Machlokes means to divide, or make smooth.  The point is most 'disagreements' are usually simple misunderstands and communication problems.  statements are often misunderstood, and need to be clarified.  The fact that different sages have different points of view doesn't make this problematic it makes it much more interesting.
3.  There are rules about decision making.  Just like in a democracy you have dissenting views and rules about deciding what the law should be.  In Judaism, G-d gave us rules about how to decide which view to follow.  That doesn't mean the other views are wrong.




What you do is irrelevant.  I'm interested in what G-d wants.  Usually, the differing opinions are in reference to how to read various verses.  The questions are whether or not the verse is to be taken with one context or another context.




1.  He didn't need to be rejected by the Sanhedrin.  It is de facto that the Jewish people as a whole - the entire nation, rejected him, since nobody really considered him of any significance.  Consider that Paul had no success in Israel, preaching to Jews, and had tremendous success among Gentiles.....I wonder why?

2. Jesus didn't fulfill the verses in Ezekiel 37.  The facts are that Ezekiel 37 is the standard requirement for anyone claiming to be a Messiah.  If you're dead, you're not the Messiah QED.




G-d is the deliverer.  Not the Messiah.  Jews have always understood this.   As a side point, your statements are misguided and simply wrong - you have to prove that hearts are hardened.  G-d said He hardened Pharaoh's heart, because only G-d knows.  You on the other hand are making blanket  assumptions and assertions with no real proof, just your own opinion.

The suffering-servant claim, even if the Messiah is supposed to suffer, doesn't impact on Ezekiel 37.  The point is that Jesus was not the only person in history to Suffer at the hands of the Romans - lets take Rabbi Akiva who was skinned alive.  Maybe he should be the suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 53.  You see, suffering is not a distinguishing feature of the Messiah.  Ezekiel 37 is.

Danny.

Part I



Yeshaya 29:13-14: The L-rd said: Inasmuch as this people has drawn close, with its mouth and with its lips it has honored Me, yet it has distanced its heart from Me - their fear of Me is like rote learning of human commands - therefore behold, I will continue to perform more wonders against this people wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of its wise men will be lost and the understanding of its sages will become concealed.

Continues 29:18 onwards:

On that day the deaf will hear the words of a book and from darkness and blackness the eyes of blind people will see.  The meek will increase their joy in Hashem, and the poor among the people will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel for fierce man is no more and the scoffer has ceased to be; and all who strive for iniquity will be cut off; those who with a word cause man to sin and ensnare the one who gives rebuke at the city gate, and mislead the righteous with falsehood....The Holy One of Jacob....Those of misguided spirit will attain understanding, and complainers will learn [G-d's] instruction.  

Lev 26
2 "'Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord. 3 "'If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit. 11 I will put my dwelling place among you, and I will not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. 13 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.

Deut 30
10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.