JFJ Forums

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,...32,00.html

Okay, so I'm not from Judaism. But this doesn't seem like the Jews that I know, which leads me to conclude that there is some kind of divide in Judaism that I'm not quite understanding. I can't tell one rabbi from another. Would someone explain to me what I'm reading? Are these rabbis who don't represent what Judaism believes (as American judges don't represent what Americans believe)? How do they fit into the total picture of Judaism?

We've actually been discussing this on another forum.
If you have read the comments (all 100 of them, LOL)
that follow the article, you will see this decision is roundly
being condemned.

This is a haredi rabbi; sometimes they get a little too extreme.
I am not sure even other haredi rabbis will agree with him.

If this decision stands, it is a major chillul HaShem and brings
shame upon Torah and Jews.....

Go slow, Sheitl. I'm learning still.

When you say a major chillul HaShem, do mean in the legal sense because it violates the Jewish law or in the more metaphorical sense in that it would make Judaism look bad or both (assuming that I have got the right definition of chillul HaShem)? One of the comments that I saw in the talkback seemed to say that there are some physical ailments that would prevent someone from converting, though this was not one of them. That whole idea is foreign to me, and not being grounded in Jewish religious law, a bit over my head. Which is why I don't know what you intend by chillul HaShem (desecration of God's name).

If the decision is being condemned by most of Judaism, why does it seem to have so much power over religious Jews? In the Mishnah, it seems like rabbis are allowed to have dissenting opinions. Obviously, there are other opinions in this case, so why is this one so important or binding? Can't someone from the court just give another opinion? Is there a way to contest a ruling by the rabbinical court? Or can a rabbinical court reverse itself in the face of popular and rabbinical condemnation?

If someone wanted to convert to Judaism, and the rabbis wouldn't let them, is it possible for them to still convert in God's eyes (I am making the distinction between legally and actually)?

Why would Torah and Jews be shamed? Tanakh reads:

This caught my eye because I have two Deaf siblings: brother and sister.

My sister and her Deaf husband have traveled the world and done missionary work (Africa, etc). Not to mention service in their own community.

Anyone ever see a Deaf "singer"?? It is awesome and beautiful and SO VERY EXPRESSIVE...much moreso than spoken language alone. (ex: We sing "bow down", they are illustrating it/doing it. Powerful, IMO.)

Sheitl~ I would be interested in your response to this question too:



Also, who has the "final word"? (Or is there such a thing?)

Oh, sorry.....




What I mean that it is an insult towards G-d
and His Torah. This is not how He wants us
to live and to interpret His word.




AFAIK, and I am certainly no expert in the laws of conversion,

there is no reason a person who has any physical limitations
cannot convert. The only problem would be if some one has
a psychological condition that would limit his ability to be able
to understand the actions he is undertaking.





The problem is the situation in Israel....the haredim hold sway over
much of what happens with conversions in Israel. They have
been putting out very extreme rulings in the last year and while
Jews and rabbis may disagree with them, it is hard to fight the
political powers that be.

I don't believe this ruling will have any effect outside of Israel.

From my understanding, this is only one rabbi's ruling, so I am
hopeful it will be over ridden.




If we were only talking about religious courts, it would be a different
issue. But we are also dealing the government of the state of Israel.




If someone wants to sincerely convert, and is persistent, a court is
not doing to turn him down. Going through conversion is necessary
in Judaism to become a Jew; there is no "conversion through G-d's
eyes". Although of course one could certainly live a Torah centered
life without being a Jew.


[/quote]

Then whatever the rabbis say about the deaf converting, the deaf will still be allowed to convert if they are persistent? This doesn't make sense to me. Why would Jews be so upset if the rulings of rabbis don't become law or as efficacious as law?

Also, if I understand you right, you are saying that either God goes by the decree of the rabbis or that the rabbis decrees voice the will of God (I'm with this one, since I don't think Jews believe that man dictates to God). We do have something like this in  Christianity--Christ told the apostles that what they bound on Earth would be bound in heaven. In the case of Christianity, the apostles bind on Earth what the Holy Spirit has shown them is already bound in heaven, so that man does not dictate to God, but echoes what God has willed. How does this work in Judaism?

Either way, persistence, then, shouldn't override the word of the Lord. Since conversion seems to go through a court, wouldn't the rulings of rabbis be more binding? (I'm thinking that the rabbis must not be the voice of the will of God then.)

I must not be understanding you correctly. Or I may not understand how the specific case of the deaf applies to the general conversion statements you made. Perhaps there are rules for exceptions that I'm missing that would fill in the gap.

You said, "the haredim hold sway over much of what happens with conversions in Israel. They have been putting out very extreme rulings in the last year and while
Jews and rabbis may disagree with them . . ." Your wording suggests that haredim are somehow not quite as wonderful as other Jews and rabbis. But my perception is that they are trying to literally live out Torah to the Nth degree. If God were a modern Jew, would He be Orthodox or would He be haredi? That is, who is more faithful to the Torah?