In Hebrew the letter lamed [ì] is the symbol for thirty and the letter vov [å] is the symbol for six. Written together, they mean thirty-six. It is the Hebrew equivalent of XXXVI. The actual masculine Hebrew word for the number thirty-six is “Shloshim v’sheesha.”
Tradition teaches us that there are thirty-six individuals alive at any given time who are potential messiahs. An individual who is one of these thirty-six is called a “Lamed-Vovnik.” Naturally, some may be infants and some may be near death, so there aren’t actually thirty-six “messiahs-in waiting” at any given moment.
The more important lesson of the concept of the Lamed-Vovnik is that there is not a one-and-only predestined messiah. While an all knowing God might know very well know who will be picked in the end, this is “divine clairvoyance,” not “pre-destiny”! Thus, we conclude that the messiah is human, not in any way divine, and is conceived in the normal manner.
In fact, if we assume that the average person will live seventy-two years, we can conclude – on average – a Lamed-Vovnik will die every two years and a new one will be born every two years. If virgin births happened with that frequency, they would be considered rare, but not really miraculous, events!
Did you just admit that a messiah has to be virgin-born?
Tradition teaches us that there are thirty-six individuals alive at any given time who are potential messiahs. An individual who is one of these thirty-six is called a “Lamed-Vovnik.” Naturally, some may be infants and some may be near death, so there aren’t actually thirty-six “messiahs-in waiting” at any given moment.
This is
tradition as opposed to
scripture. Paul said that Jesus died for our sins [and was buried and raised again] according to the scriptures.
1 Cor. 15:3-4
The more important lesson of the concept of the Lamed-Vovnik is that there is not a one-and-only predestined messiah. While an all knowing God might know very well know who will be picked in the end, this is “divine clairvoyance,” not “pre-destiny”! Thus, we conclude that the messiah is human, not in any way divine, and is conceived in the normal manner.
A believer is predestined, in Christ.
Eph. 1:4-6 But in scripture Christ is not indicated as Himself predestined; for He is the eternal Son in the Godhead. That means He always existed, as God, He was God come in the flesh, and He will always exist, as God.
Col. 2:8-12;
1 John 5:11-13, 20;
Rev. 1:18. Further, He will reign as God.
Psalm 2;
Rev. 19
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." 1 Peter 1:18-21
I disagree that Jesus was not predestined to be born, live, then die on our behalf.
The very reason he was born was to be the King of Righteous Ones. If there was ever a King appointed by God over Lamed Vavniks, then it was Christ Jesus, the most perfect (whole) Tzadik ever born. God's will became his will from childhood. "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52 Jesus fully owned his yetzer hara. "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." He resisted to save himself, even when he was given the power. He submitted to the will of God. "nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
Jesus said of himself, "Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." John 18:37
There are no longer only 36, but as soon as men learn of God, and God draws them to Christ, then Christ teaches them, they trust God through Christ. There are many, many Tzadikim in the world. Christ is their Prince, and God is their God.
Shalom,
Christopher
Tradition teaches us that there are thirty-six individuals alive at any given time who are potential messiahs.
And tradition may hold that there may have been 30 potential deliverers to lead the people out of Egypt... but God had one in mind: a baby in a basket.
RE: Messiah, He told us what to look for. Gave us a picture of Him, if you will. 18,247,692 (abstract number made up by me, ok?) didn't fit the bill, ONE DID.
And tradition may hold that there may have been 30 potential deliverers to lead the people out of Egypt... but God had one in mind: a baby in a basket.
RE: Messiah, He told us what to look for. Gave us a picture of Him, if you will. 18,247,692 (abstract number made up by me, ok?) didn't fit the bill, ONE DID.
Moses was chosen by G-d, but there's nothing in the scriptures that says that he was the one and only person predestined to be the deliverer.
chrikaren, responding to your post #4:
[...]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:[b]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, [...]1 Peter 1:18-21
I disagree that Jesus was not predestined to be born, live, then die on our behalf. [...] Jesus fully owned his yetzer hara. [...] "nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
Jesus said of himself, [...] To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." John 18:37
First, the concept of yetzer hara is necessarily a fable. The scriptures say that man's heart is desperately wicked.
Jer. 17:9 God was not speaking of His Son here, but of creatures like you and me. The scriptures also say of God, whose only begotten Son Christ is (only begotten: having the same nature; with Jesus Christ born with that of God's) that "in Him is no darkness at all."
1 John 1.
There is apparently a difference between foreordained and predestinated, although one can scarcely tell at first from English dictionary definitions, as they seem to be used interchangeably. But closer examination notes the difference manifests between being ordered (ordained) by God to do something, and set apart (destined) by God for a special use. Foreordained is used of Christ alone concerning His person and work, and predestinated is used of believers in Christ. For Christ (who from eternity past is the Son) only could have merited to receive such an order (redeem mankind with His own shed blood) and possessed the ability to perform it fully. In man's case, man wholly depends upon God to have predestined him to be "conformed", "called", "adopted" to "inherit"--all according to the will of God and not by choice of man. Perhaps those versed in Greek can enlighten between these references, first for foreordained in
1 Peter 1:20, and for predestinate in
Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, 11. It is significant that Christ alone is designated "foreordained" the Lamb, for He is God; the God-man indeed is Christ Jesus, and there never was nor could there ever be another.
ordain
destine
Did you just admit that a messiah has to be virgin-born?
Hardly! If the messiah must be of virgin birth, then every lamed vovnik would need to be born that way. That would mean a virgin birth every other year – on average – since the messiah was prophesized.
Since that’s based on an average life expectancy of seventy-two years, it would have happened even more frequently. If it happened throughout history with this regularity, it would be a rare event, but not anything that anybody would consider super-natural. Furthermore, since the identities of the lamed vovniks are hidden, there would have to be more virgin births, otherwise it could be apparent who the lamed vovniks are.
[qoute]Gave us a picture of Him, if you will. 18,247,692 (abstract number made up by me, ok?) didn't fit the bill, ONE DID.[/quote]
"Potentials" stand down... here is the King God told us about.
Ok, just checking *L* It sounded like you said that in the first post. My bad. *L* It's very true that a virgin birth would, indeed, be quite a sign from G-d, eh? But any woman giving birth is not a sign but merely a biological occurrence.
In Isaiah 7 remember the prophet delivering a message to the evil Ahaz? Here I quote from the NetBible:
At this point one is able to summarize the content of the gsignh (vv. 14-15) as follows: A young woman known to be present when Isaiah delivered this message to Ahaz (perhaps a member of the royal family or the prophetess mentioned in 8:3) would soon give birth to a boy whom the mother would name Immanuel, gGod is with us.h Eventually Immanuel would be forced to eat sour milk and honey, which would enable him to make correct moral decisions. How would this situation come about and how would it constitute a sign? Before this situation developed, the Israelites and Syrians would be defeated. But then the Lord would usher in a period of time unlike any since the division of the kingdom almost 200 years before. The Assyrians would overrun the land, destroy the crops, and force the people to subsist on goatsf milk and honey. At that time, as the people saw Immanuel eating his sour milk and honey, the Davidic family would be forced to acknowledge that God was indeed with them. He was present with them in the Syrian-Israelite crisis, fully capable of rescuing them; but he was also present with them in judgment, disciplining them for their lack of trust. The moral of the story is quite clear: Failure to appropriate Godfs promises by faith can turn potential blessing into disciplinary judgment.
Again,
"Failure to appropriate Godfs promises by faith can turn potential blessing into disciplinary judgment." Accepting the traditions of men over the Holy Scripture is very, very dangerous!