JFJ Forums

" ean-me tis ........gennthe ex ......hudatos"

"unless ...anyone be born out of water"

"born out of water" = "gennthe ex hudatos" =

1) [Compare Titus 3:5 from the New Testament perspective]:

[Titus 3:5]:

"ouk ex .......ergon ton ....en dikaiosuen

"not .out of works which in righteousness



on ......epoiesamen emeis alla

which practiced ....we ....but



kata ...............ton autou eleon ...esosen ....emas

according to .His ...........mercy He saved us



dia .........loutrou paliggenesias

through washing again birth (regeneration)



kai ...anakainoseos pneumatos agiou"

and ...renewing ......of Spirit .....Holy"


a) BEING BORN AGAIN IS NOT VIA WORKS BUT VIA THE "WASHING" WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT - GOD'S WORK OF MERCY NOT OF MERIT FOR ANY HUMAN DOING

So, being born again, i.e., salvation unto eternal life is not achieved by practicing good works. Salvation, on the contrary, is an act of mercy by God upon the individual as it says above. Titus 3:5 parallels Jn 3:5 in that it describes being born again as a washing again birth in the realm of the Holy Spirit. This washing again birth, i.e., regeneration is exclusively the renewing process of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore salvation is portrayed here as concurrent with being born again; even two sides of the same coin. So the exclusive connection between washing & water, the Holy Spirit and regeneration is repeatedly made in God's Word.


continue

) [Compare Ez 36:24-27 from the Old Testament]

This teaching is also substantiated in the Old Testament, especially in the passage which Jesus was referring to in His conversation with Nicodemus: The scripture which Nicodemus was sure to be familiar with relative to the phrase "born of water" is about how God will sprinkle clean water on the Jewish people...cleansing them from all sin...giving them a new heart...putting a new spirit in them...by putting His Spirit in them. (Ez 36:24-27). John 3:5's "born of water and spirit." This indeed is being born again, from above = indicated right there in the Old Testament:

i cont.) [Ez 36:24-27 cont.]:

(v. 24) "For I will take you [Israel] out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

(v. 25) I [God] will sprinkle clean water [the Holy Spirit, (v. 27)] on you and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols."

["water" - water here is the symbol for God the Holy Spirit, cp Jn 7:38-39a]:

[Compare Jn 7:38-39a]:

(v. 38) "Whoever believes in Me [Jesus Christ] as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.

(v. 39a) By this He meant the Spirit..."

[Notice that we have the possibility presented in the New Testament that water could be figurative of the Holy Spirit in the context of being born again.



continue


http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#VA1Bi

Compare the O.T. passages our Lord was referring to: Isa 43:20; 44:3; 55:1 &  especially 12:2-3]:

[Ref Isa 44:3]:

"For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants."

[Ref Isa 55:1]:

"Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost."

[Notice the reference to waters being symbolic of the Lord]

[Ref. Isa 12:2-3]:

(v. 2) "Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The Lord, the Lord, is my strength and my song; He has become my salvation.

(v. 3) With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."

i cont.) [Ez 36:24-27 cont.]:

(v. 25) "I [God] will sprinkle clean water [the Holy Spirit] on you and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols."

[The clear understanding of the phrase "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean: I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols" has in view something physical water obviously and logically cannot do. Besides that, God is the One doing the sprinkling of clean water on Israel. Why would God be sprinkling actual physical clean water on the nation Israel? This is obviously a figure of speech, not representative of physical water. Verse 26 then continues this context to elaborate what God is going to do to Israel relative to His sprinkling of clean water on Israel, and that is; and only the Holy Spirit can do this]:

(v. 26) I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; [a born again spirit, (Jn 3:5)] I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

["I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you" is clearly tied to the sprinkling of clean water in v. 25, which cannot be accomplished by sprinkling of actual physical water. And as verse 26 continues in context, "I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." Clearly all of this together is describing an operation that is in the spiritual realm and not the physical. Thus this excludes the sprinkling of physical water. Finally, verse 27 provides the spiritual reality behind using water as a figure of speech for God the Holy Spirit's operating on the nation Israel in the spiritual realm]:




continue


http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#VA1Bi

v. 27) And I will put My Spirit in you and move you to follow My decrees and be careful to keep My laws."

[So the water is tied to an operation by God the Holy Spirit. Any attempt to make water physical flies in the face of the rules of figure of speech when sprinkling of physical water cannot be expected to provide the results stipulated above in verse 27. Clearly this is a description of water as a figure of speech of God the Holy Spirit operating in the spiritual realm in the regeneration of Israel which Nicodemus should have been familiar with and drawn a parallel with what Jesus said in Jn 3:5-6.

So Jesus says in Jn 3:5 that a man must be born spiritually - born again out of the renewing of the Holy Spirit and out of the spiritual realm - otherwise he cannot enter the kingdom of God, of heaven.



wilby To me this is  easy as 1 2 3 to understand.

Sugarman -- Not interested in your bible studies as I stated before.

They have NOTHING to do with the Doctrine of Christ--The FAITH -- and His Word especially the parts about go into all nations baptizing in my name.

Matthew 28

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
That name is YahuShuah translated incorrectly to Jesus but Jesus does work and is accepted today

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You can ONLY get around baptism in His name by FORCING your belief system over and above Christ's own words/commands and His words were the words of the Father.

Good-luck dealing with this at judgement but I would that you all were baptized today.

According to scripture -- no added translations -- it says what it says with many supporting scriptures on water baptism and regeneration and being born again of WATER & SPIRIT as commanded to us.

Jesus watched and taught water baptism to the deciples therefore if Jesus says to do it then I am doing it as I have already done.

You are NOT denying me - your are denying scripture you are denying the Father -- think about the seriousness of your decisions.

Follow Christ in the regeneration. How? By being baptized into His death and rising out of the WATER in the likeness of His resurrection a NEW CREATURE in Christ.

AMEN!

[/quote]



willby I'm not the one deny The basic meaning of scripture nor its grammar of being.



Sugarman -- Not interested in your bible studies as I stated before.




willby so your close minded person when it comes to understanding others?



What the use of trying to get people to accpet your side when you will not even look or study others points  of others?


The basic of debate or conversation is to listen and study both points.




Also Note even sense The first century delay baptism for new converts.


They taught them the scriptures for sometime until they could eat the meat parts of scripture and then they were baptism because they then had The understanding what it means to be a follower of Christ.




"History of the Christian Church," Vol. II, pp. 256-57, by Philip Schaff]:

"During the period of 100-311 A.D. it became the practice to place converts on a probationary period of teaching for approximately two years before baptism to make certain that their conversion was genuine"

[Also, compare Eerdman's "Handbook to the History of Christianity", (Tim Dowley Organizing Ed. Consulting Editors Briggs, Wright, & Linder. Copyright 1997 Lion Publishing. England. Reprinted 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. of G.R., Mich.; Library of Congress: BR146.E35 270 77.5616 ISBN 0-8028=3450-7]:

[pp. 9-10]: Baptism originally time of giving witness to faith, entrance to local church identifying with Christ, considerable preparation was necessary first. Often 3 years!





so sense 100ad  people been understanding baptism The same as I.



and This is still in the life of one of the apostles.


http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/baptism2.htm#VIID



baptism is a command under The obedience of Christ when one is saved Not a command unto salvation.

Interresting Sugarman,

Never heard about the source off studying... about 2 years before being baptised...
I nowadays saw it done sometimes in a day. But mainly churches ask differen hours of teaching first...
Also in Judaism nowadays conversion till baptism usually takes years. In the early days it was not so long, but at least 3 people from the comunity had to trust you...

This means often, besides sincere motive, you have live according to the interpretation of the group where you are converting too.


Something Else, a not so Messianic viewpoint. But I never heard Messianics think about this one:
I'm happy that I'm bought and payed for by HaShem. Moses did sing so in the so called ''song of Moses''... That was after we went trough the water. Because the holy Spirit was anyway there too etc. For me that is enough, to be owned by HaShem allready. So why should I go a 2nd time in a bath... And then join a group of 'new believers' who might think that they know everything better? And than suddenly I have to believe that the Messhiach is more important than God?
And in the early years there where also groups who found the Holy Spirit most important...
No sorry God Saved us by the sea of reeds. And He made promissises.

That it is neccesarry for new converts to go into water themselves, was allready logical and necessary in Judaism...
But I don't think that a Jew needs a second baptism...
Somewhere in NT they are also not so happy about 2nd baptisms, although in another sence!!! But I think that it is good for Jews too not to be for a second baptism.

Greetings.   from a Saved Jew...

To delay someone from being baptized after they believe is wrong and it further shows a lack of understanding for what baptism does for you.

Here the Word
Believe in the Word is to act on the Word
Baptism into Jesus remits the curse - puts you in the N.T. covenant - circumcision of heart
Filled with the Holy Ghost.
Live righteous
Communion is for our mistakes - communion also remits sin - His blood

This is only the beginning of your salvation journey in the N.T.

Philip taught the Word to the Ethiopian -- he believed the Word -- he immediately was baptized into Jesus.

This senerio happened many times in scripture and probably thousands of unrecorded times as well. WHY? Because it is scriptural and not contaminated and twisted by man/satan.

In the O.T. it was commanded:

Circumcision -- eight day - put them in the covenant - a token
Day of Atonement -- once a year, same day every year
Live righteous
Repent if you make mistakes and you were forgiven

I believe that thief on the cross was a good man, followed the commandments and obserbed the Day of Atonement, but he made a mistake. When he ask Jesus for forgiveness Jesus had to by Law forgive the man under the rules for repenting (see the O.T.). But the man had to have completed the first rules of salvation first as stated above.
In other words, if the thief was not circumcised then he word not have been forgiven. Strict, Just, -- you bet He is!

We also have to complete the minimun requirements of salvation in the N.T. as I stated but our salvation journey is a life long event and no one can really say they are saved until the very end of our journey therefore, complete the commandments of Christ which leads unto life.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

WOW! Another way to be saved! But only for the Jews??
I will add it to my list of how you can not be saved.

Did you every read how the Jewish people came out of favour with God for their disobedience to His Word? You are truely following in your fathers foot steps aren't you?

Surely you must be joking and if your not then you are lost and not saved according to the New Testemant salvation.

The O.T. ended at the resurrection and a new way, a better way, with better promises began.

All scriptural !!

willby if you connect The apostle teachings and The earlier church they both view baptism the same.




The apostles did not answer The question be baptism and you will be saved but Believe and you will be saved.



They baptism the person AFTER  they had given the apostles there answer yes or no to follow Jesus.


if yes then they are saved and they were baptism to show that they are now in the body of Christ.


But The holy spirit which comes right after confessing romans 10-9-10  and the holy spirt indwells in  the believer right after there confessing 1 eph 1;13 This is what literal puts you in the body of Christ.  water does not have this power  only The spirit of God does.

Water is just something to show others symbolic you are in the body of Christ.




The same example is show  in scripture through and through The apostles base somone salvation on answering a question do you believe?



if baptism saved there be no separating from asking do you believe and from being baptism.


The apostles always waited for an   answer.