JFJ Forums

Look I have been fortunate enough to have the number one Page Rank site for the words “Pentecostal Worship”. Google it and it will be first or second on the list. Read the dialog and comments for the YouTube videos as baptism was raised on a few occasions with a range of people confessing their faith from Acts 2. Some comments overflowed to the other two videos on there. I have just blocked off new comments on the videos as the purpose of the videos was not to create a discussion forum but to praise the L-rd. Feel free to quote my stance from there and paste it in here if you like.

I will try to read you full post tomorrow as it is really late here and will also try to respond but I don't have time for circular arguments and prefer to be a bystander protecting those little ones whom you try condemn to your religious mould. But let it be known to you that Mark 16 did not condemn those who were not baptized and you would do well to encourage baptism as opposed to demanding it as an absolute requirement!

There is a reason why Yeshua was submerged in water therefore take heed that you do not offend one of His little ones that ADONAI accepted.

Rom 8:33-34 NIV  Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.  (34)  Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Blessed be the Name of Jesus Christ my L-rd and my G-d
I will trust in Him

You can not understand salvation and the role faith, baptism and obedience plays until you look at the problem from the triune nature of man; man is a spirit, he has a soul and lives in a body. I know unitarian that interpret scripture better. Each area may be spiritually influenced but eternal life is in the spirit and it is the work of G-d without hands. This veil must be removed or we will not be able to go further. You also lack Jewish context and you know very well that saved is not necessarily eternal life for it may be healing etc. Interpret the difficult verses through the majority. Every verse you bring forth to support baptism as the only means for eternal life I will give you three witnesses where it is by faith in Christ alone and yet spamming debates is not something I have time for. Condemn not those who received Christ and allow grace to lead people to true repentance. I say it again condemn not those whom the L-rd received!

The yeast of the Pharisee's on the subject of water baptism is expanding.
I think only Wilby and Danny are the strong over comers mentioned above but I will boast in my weaknesses and the L-rds mercy and kindness.

Christian Pharisee's... is there such a thing? You are sincere, strong and religious but the scripture tells me that we have already passed from death to life.

Joh 17:3 NIV  Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

For some reason I choose to trust in my Damascus experiences and His Word that became flesh. Amen.

wkirscher, responding to your post #327:
The fact that Jesus was sinless and had no need to repent is our first clue that baptism is not for the purpose of regeneration, aka salvation from sin.  Jesus was baptized by John because as the Son of man, doing the will of the Father, He was about to embark on His ministry, and that ministry was to be by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Since Christ is from eternity past and He was always the Son, His baptism by John does not make Him the Son by way of baptism; likewise we are not made sons of God by water baptism.  It is identification--Christ was identifying Himself with us, and just as we cannot have any power in our respective ministries without the Holy Spirit, the Spirit descended upon Christ in this visible manner.  At Pentecost, this same Holy Spirit empowered the apostles' ministry; that is why Jesus instructed them to wait for this power.

In the reference to the Flood, we are likewise not saved by water--the ark (Christ; we must be in Christ) was the means of salvation; the waters of the Flood was the judgment of God.

If you feel there has been a twisting of scripture within the explanation of Acts 2:38, write to Dr. Erwin Lutzer.  He is alive and well at Moody Bible Institute, and would love to hear your thoughts.  I have read many of his books and don't share your opinion that he has twisted scripture.  Acts 22:16 contains the admonition to call upon the name of the LORD to be saved (wash away sin); there you go.  I think you have to really reach out and end up grasping thin air to justify that water washes away sin.  No ritual washes sin; it is by the blood of Jesus, and that blood is applied by the Holy Spirit.  It is there in heaven, since Christ presented it after His resurrection and before His ascension.  By His own blood, He went to prepare a place for us in heaven.  So how is water baptism the better cleansing agent.

Of Water and the Spirit refers to the Word of God and the Spirit of God.  The Spirit of God takes the things of Christ and shows them unto us.  It is the means by which He opens our understanding, and brings us to life to God.  Water is also used to reference the Holy Spirit, which is the Author of scripture, and Jesus is also called the Word of God.  What we have here is the essence of the Trinity--one God in three persons.  It is God only that is responsible for our regeneration--not the natural element of water and the ritual of baptism connected with it.  Water baptism is a public identification with Christ.

Clearing the head is something that occultism teaches.  We should never pretend we do not know something.  You are asking I think for objectivity.  I am asking the same of you.

When I was saved, I was six years old.  I responded to the gospel message that I was a sinner, and as a sinner I could never make things right with God who was holy, and that God had died for my sins.  The light went on as to why we worshipped God.  

When I saw other people baptized, I wanted to be baptized, but it did not take place until several years later, when I finally spoke up.  For some reason, adults tend to not take kids' conversions too seriously, thinking only adults really understand.  But it is God who makes us understand we are sinners.

I know I was saved even before my baptism, because immediately even as a small child I was able to begin to understand what was being preached by adults in the church.  Normally kids do not understand adult talk very much, but I picked up on what pertained to my Saviour.  The Holy Spirit is our teacher.

I have had plenty of time since then to reassess what happened, and I am convinced that I was saved that day when I first responded to the gospel.  It is true; only believe, and He will save you.

The Ethiopian also need help to understand the scriptures and Phillip taught him to be baptized in Jesus name.

Ephesians 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Jans if you did not read about baptism then you like many are in need of a good teacher.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Also when you say that you accepted him as your lord and saviour this statement is a religious one taught by religion so you where influenced--wrongly I must say.

There are many scriptures, like this one, that speak ONLY of faith, and don't mention baptism. Then there are ones that speak of faith and baptism. But none that speak of baptism as saving by itself.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:16- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Believe in Him means to believe in all of Him all His words and all His purpose. Do as He commanded is believing in Him and He commanded baptism and the filling of the Holy Ghost---this is true believing--TO act on His words.

The Holy Spirit is our seal:
"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

Believed and was baptized then sealed with the Holy Ghost promised to us by the Father.

Baptism is always into Jesus name ALWAYS. It is extremely important to receive this name at baptism EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

RE: Baptistic

In the O.T. they circumcised on the eigth day NO CHOICE as it put you in the covenant between God and Israel.

Baptism does so much more for everyone:

It puts you in the N.T. covenant with the Father.
It is circumcision of heart.
It gives us His name
It removes the curse from our flesh so it does cleans us

Scripture is very clear people VERY CLEAR! -- We are Planted into His death--WE are DEAD-our old body is dead--the we are then raised in the likeness of His resurrection --and we are made alive in Christ(quickend).

All this points to the cross and His shed blood--we do not need to actually die like Christ did but He does ask us to follow Him in the regeneration(rebirth) --It is all about being reborn without the curse of death and when we rise out of the water we receive His Spirit, His name, members of His body, we are the church, we are sons, we are joint heirs with Christ, He is in us and we are in Him, He gives us life and without Him we are dead.

The fact that Jesus was sinless and had no need to repent is our first clue that baptism is not for the purpose of regeneration

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You can still get baptized without repentance if you are a God fearing righteous man. Jesus wants sinners to repent not the righteous--BUT like the righteous even babys need to be baptized for reason already stated.

---now here is the clincher and you have all heard it before but now you know why He says it.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

WHY does Christ say He never knew you? Doesn't He know everyone? OR does He JUST recognize people that have taken on His name at baptism and received the gift of promise?

All the people in question did many good works for the Lord BUT the Lord rejects thems--WHY? WHY? WHY?

My answer is this: They had no right to use the name of the Lord and they were not in His family.

Being baptized gives you His name at birth and the Holy Ghost gives you the authority and power behind the name--that name is Christ Jesus or Yeshua Messiah--both are acceptable.

Receiveing the Holy Ghost is absolutely paramount to salvation BUT do NOT under-estimate the absolute need for water baptism.

Yes it is just water and there is nothing magical about the water BUT it is the act of following Jesus through death burial and resurrection.

Since it appears you consider the statement that Jesus is Messiah, Lord and Savior incorrect, let's look at scripture.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Scripture testifies of Jesus. There you have the centrality of scripture. Testifying of Jesus.

So who is Jesus? Do you deny He is Messiah?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

Do you deny Jesus is Lord?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.


Do you deny Jesus is salvation? Well, Yeshua means salvation but here is a scripture.

Luke2:25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,



All scripture speaks of Jesus.  

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses (Torah), and in the prophets (Neviim), and in the psalms (Ketuvim), concerning me.

Who Jesus is is the basis of scripture, the NT, and Christianity/Messianic Judaism.  
Since scripture speaks of Jesus, and you disagree that Jesus is Messiah, Lord and Savior, who is Jesus to you?


Romans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

wilby~



Wrong emphasis. Here's the correct emphasis, He clarified it for you:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (SIN) , but the answer of a good conscience (FAITH) toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

There is not one scripture that shows baptism saves, or is necessary for salvation. Sorry.

Frankly, since you are a pantheist, and don't even know Who Jesus is, at your magical curse removing baptism you might as well have said: abracadabra.

The Spirit testifies to the Truth: Jesus, not baptism.