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YAY!!! PREACH IT! BROTHER!

Jans:

Just FYI- This is a fairly easy test for me since I had never attended a church when I read the NT for the first time. I didn't really know any Christians. I realized Jesus is the Messiah from reading the NT and accepted Him as my Messiah, Lord and Savior but did not attend a church for almost 2 years.

Also when you say that you accepted him as your lord and saviour this statement is a religious one taught by religion so you where influenced--wrongly I must say.

Since it appears you consider the statement that Jesus is Messiah, Lord and Savior incorrect, let's look at scripture.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Scripture testifies of Jesus. There you have the centrality of scripture. Testifying of Jesus.

So who is Jesus? Do you deny He is Messiah?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

Do you deny Jesus is Lord?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Do you deny Jesus is salvation? Well, Yeshua means salvation but here is a scripture.

Luke2:25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

All scripture speaks of Jesus.  

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses (Torah), and in the prophets (Neviim), and in the psalms (Ketuvim), concerning me.

Who Jesus is is the basis of scripture, the NT, and Christianity/Messianic Judaism.

Since scripture speaks of Jesus, and you disagree that Jesus is Messiah, Lord and Savior, who is Jesus to you?

Romans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



1 peter 3:21 looks like willbu does not understand The filth of The flesh, this is sin.



Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


looks like willby is trying to use a scripture  that is found in not many of the oldest scripts to hold his view.


also This scripture not back up willby teaching.


since somone is made new in Christ at the moment of faith in him, The holy spirit puts the desire to do God will.


willby does not understand WE can not do anything to please God without Christ himself.


we are made to do good works in Christ after  salvation Not  before.


Any deeds that is done without God are filthy rags

Everyone has provided many wonderful references to God’s word that it is through faith that we are saved.  A thousand Amens!!! But no one has provided a verse that says it is through faith alone.  Which brings up the very important question of how does faith differ from belief?  Is believing in Jesus the same as having faith in him?  Faith means to believe and to act out on that belief, to accept him as our Lord, (i.e. be obedient to him), and through the gift of faith, we are granted many graces that lead to our eternal salvation.  Scripture provides so many examples about how the believer, through obedience to what our Lord asks of us, is expected to act on this belief (i.e. live out ones faith).  This is why I prefer to be called a disciple or Christian, rather than a “believer”.  It is only by God’s grace and how the Holy Spirit changes us that we are able to be converted to live this way.

I’m nowhere making the statement that baptism alone is the means by which we receive eternal life. You are correct that there are verses that state faith is required for salvation.  Just as there are verses that show baptism is also required (you are free to reject these) and there are verses that state acts of charity are required for eternal salvation.  But again, this is not of our own doing, it is through the Holy Spirit continually working in our lives to convert us.  Is “being saved” an instantaneous and permanent event (a.k.a. once-saved-always-saved, eternal security, perseverance of the saints)?  In other words, once you believe in Jesus, is this a ticket to eternal life?  One can pick out verses here and there that support this just as one can do the same to refute this.  And it is very important to consider the various meanings of being “saved” (saved from sin, saved from harm, saved from eternal damnation, …).  That is why Paul talks about having been saved, in the process of being saved, and enduring to the end.

Cont …
Baptism is one of the many things we are asked to do as “believers” and is one of the many ways we are infused with the grace that leads to our eternal salvation.  It is NOT merely symbolic.  If it were, then it would merely be some pious ritual.  This is the consent of the church since apostolic times, unanimous until after the reformation.

Rejection of the regenerative nature of baptism is a result of the post reformation beliefs of Sola-Fide.  Luther continued with the belief that baptism was regenerative but when Sola-Fide is taken to it’s extreme, the graces received in baptism are rejected because baptism is wrongly interpreted as a work.  It is rightly interpreted as an act of obedience to what our Lord has commanded us and I don’t believe he asks us to do anything that does not give us the graces we need to lead us to eternal life.

Prowler – No where have I stated that baptism is the only means of eternal salvation.  I’ve made this point several times and have insisted that it is part of God’s plan for our salvation just as faith, trust, obedience ……  But you claim you can show me verses that state we are saved by faith alone.  Search through scriptures and you will see that the only place where “faith” and “alone” show up in the same sentence is in James 2:24.

You quoted “eternal life is in the spirit and it is the work of God without hands”.  I’m not sure exactly how to interpret this.  It sounds dangerously similar to the Docetism heresy.  First, regarding “eternal life is in the spirit” – do you deny the resurrection?  At the end of times, our spirits will enjoy our physically resurrected bodies.  And let’s put this into Jewish context.  Was God physically present in the burning bush?  Was God physically present in the pillar of smoke?  Was God physically present in the tabernacle?  Do you deny his physical manifestations?  Do you deny he uses physical means to confer his grace? Do you deny the means by which he used water throughout the O.T. to save his people?  Do you deny the ritual cleansing (mikveh) through water?   So why deny the spiritual cleansing and renewal of life through the waters of baptism?  This, my brother, is the Jewish context of baptism.
Cont …

… cont
You also make some statement about “Unitarians who interpret scripture better”.  My understanding of baptism is consistent with scripture, AND it is consistent with the writings of the early church, AND it is consistent with the unanimous teachings of the church until the Reformation, AND it is consistent with what most Christians still hold true today.  Are we all wrong and your interpretation correct?

Let’s be clear about this also.  Unlike Wilby, I’m not condemning those who are not baptized.  It is not my place to judge.  I’m merely stating what is identified through scripture and unanimous consent of the Church until after the reformation as the ORDINARY means of salvation.  Can God grant eternal salvation to those who have not been baptized?  Of course he can.  How blessed are those who have had an authentic conversion experience like Paul’s.  This truly is a gift and one who receives such gifts should be careful not to judge those who receive the gift through more ordinary means.

Part 1 of 2

Maybe the Amplified will help some...

(1Pe 3:21 AMP)  And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The above translation does not need a commentary so lets go on...

Now lets look at Mark 16:16.

(Mar 16:16 NIV)  Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now the word saved here means the full salvation which includes eternal life in heaven and healing and deliverance here on earth.

Now for this full REDEMPTION to be true and manifest ALWAYS we need two things... faith in Christ onto salvation and co-operation with the Holy Spirit on earth to receive the promise. Baptism is symbolic of obedience and it is for our benefit; serving to help us believe. Obedience is important to a Christian because the scripture says that those who are led by the Spirit of G-d are the sons of G-d. If one is not led by the Spirit of G-d and does not have an intimate relationship with the L-rd yet believes on Christ he or she saved and a child of G-d; despite their disobedience to His voice and leading in their life.

So Mark 16:16 promises deliverance but notice that the later part of the verse does not condemn the child of G-d who may not have received the baptism and power from on high and the verse only damns unbelievers. This verse can be interpreted another way but it would not be consistent with the Good News and the rest and the overwhelming majority of scripture.

Part 2 of 2

Now I have a question... If a person needs water baptism to receive eternal life - because they think the Name and the blood of Jesus was not good enough and needs to be coupled with the water baptism ritual - did that person fail to believe?

The answer is no their act of faith in baptism expressed that they believe. How can you be sure you truly believe? How can you be certain you have faith? By manifesting your faith you can have assurance that you believed because G-d honors faith. This is faith made perfect which brings assurance to those who do not have it. There are many who were saved even before water baptism because the L-rd removed the veil, filled them with His Spirit and witnessed in them that they are saved sometimes years before the water baptism.

(Joh 4:48 NIV)  Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders, Jesus told him, you will never believe.

Because of the L-rd's great mercy he created many avenues in scripture to let and help us believe... sadly the enemy who tried to destroy the seed of the woman continually tries to pervert the Gospel and turns something that was once helpful to an idol through religion. Satan always contends for the body of Moses.

We are saved sinners by faith in Christ alone!

Baptism is for all (John 4:48) but it is especially powerful to those with weak faith; just like the anointing with oil is used to help the weak to believe and trust the L-rd for their healing. For it is not the oil that saves but the prayer of faith. Same principle functions with baptism. Not the ritual but faith in Christ. Does the oil and water help? You bet we are human and most are not any better than Thomas (Joh 20:25).

Finally can I be healed without being anointed with oil?
Yes in Jesus Name.

Can I be saved and go to heaven even though I failed to be water baptized?
Yes and amen if you called on His Name.

Should I be baptized?
Yes and amen in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

There is also a Jewish reason for water baptism which has to do with the unpardonable sin... a topic that is well taught in messianic circles... but it is often hard for some to receive.

Blessed be my G-d and Savior Christ Jesus

I will clarify this statement.

Religion says that all you have to do is exept Jesus as your Lord and saviour ---then you are saved---and this is NOT true.

He is our Lord and Saviour if you follow Him as He commanded.

He commanded baptism into His name and for doing so the Father will give you the Gift of promise.

Of which, leads to ETERNAL LIFE !!

Very good posts you made--well done.

Let’s be clear about this also.  Unlike Wilby, I’m not condemning those who are not baptized.  It is not my place to judge.

Strange statement to make.

For one we are here to judge right and wrong and to take a stand for truth.

Two--I can not condemn anyone but I can strongly preach salvation and I do and hence you and others have started to support the need for baptism for salvation. If this continues then Christ through us will bring others to the waters of salvation in Jesus/Yeshua's name.

Paul has the message from Christ--he is chosen and he is the father of many churches.

Follow the doctrine of Christ---The Faith---the Gospel of Salvation as taught by Paul.

Sorry if I am to bold people but I am passionate and passion can be seen by some as a negative thing.

I have learned alot of good things on this forum and I am thankful for the experience.

I just asked myself---why am I trying to show you salvation and what is driving me?

I am compelled to be here right now but maybe soon I will be drawn away to another place and another forum.

God Bless--in Jesus name.