JFJ Forums

wilby said:



wilby, you need to start at Gen 1 and read it through one more time. We are called children of Abraham because like his faith was accredited *as* righteousness, so is ours, and that was before he was circumcized. The circumcision was a sign of the covenant, as the Holy Spirit is our sign now.

His faith was in the promise: Christ. (Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and personally, I believe he met Jesus, as Melchezedek.) Ours is in the finished work of that same Messiah.

Righteous, perfect, holy, etc are relative terms. We (are supposed to) measure ourselves to God, and in that way we are not any of those, YET. Relative to our old natures, yes, we are (more) righteous, holy, perfect...but we still sin. And ALL we need to do is ask for forgiveness and He is faithful to forgive us based on the FINISHED WORK of our Savior. And guess what else? He even forgives us of our unconfessed sin that we don't even know we did! He is the lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Not "most of the sin of the world", or "the listed sin that is confessed, or baptized, or communioned away"...

There is no "THE FAITH"... there is ONE faith. One either has faith in Jesus, or they don't. Simple as that.

I've already said it a number of times: you have a "different Jesus" and "another gospel" than those told of in the Bible.

Wilby, responding to your post #386:
You just admitted [you] are a sinner.

The "sin unto death" section has to do with how God will punish a believer for certain wrongdoings he does in his Christian walk.  God will punish a believer with death.  It does not mean the believer is not saved; but physical death is his punishment.

How do you, as a hell doomed sinner, rise up to heaven, into the presence of God, approach the blood of Christ there in the true temple, and apply the blood to your life?  How do you thrust aside the power of God in the person of the Holy Spirit, and do all this yourself?

Do you believe in transubstantiation then?  Does the cup of grape juice become the actual blood of Christ, and does the unleavened wafer become the actual body of Christ? at each time you take communion, so that you are saved each time?  At what point after taking communion do you become unsaved again?

Can you show me the scriptures for all of the above?

Prowler regarding post #385

You want to interpret this in a Jewish court setting????  Ask any orthodox Rabbi and see how this would be settled.  They would turn to the oral tradition handed down to Moses.  If you are like some of the other Evangelical Protestants on this site, you reject the Jewish understanding of the Oral Torah because it contradicts the post-reformation, man-made doctrine of Sola-Scriptura.  Yet, as I’ve pointed out, and Orthodox Jews will agree, an oral torah is used to help interpret the written torah.  After Jesus and Pentecost, this oral tradition is known as the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth” (1 Tim 3:15).  A court would also look at precedence in judging matters.  They would not reject 1500 years of unanimous consent in favor of a new interpretation.  STILL, no one has risen to my challenge of providing a pre-Reformation interpretation of baptism as being only symbolic.

-I have not been arguing about the order of faith and baptism.  My position all along has been both/and and not either/or.  The argument I’ve made, and shown through scripture and church history, is that BAPTISM IS REGENERATIVE.  In other words, it is not merely symbolic as a minority of Christians teach.  We receive grace through faith AND we receive grace through baptism!!!!  Can a person be saved without baptism?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Can a person be saved without faith and without baptism (i.e. someone who has never heard the Gospel or is incapable of understanding due to age or mental disability)?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Can a person be saved through baptism and no faith (i.e. a child who dies before they are able to make a profession of faith)?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Unlike many others in this forum, I do not judge anyone’s salvation.  I’ll challenge doctrine but never one’s standing before God.

What do you mean by “your position is religious” and “it chokes the church”?  And how am I robbing the Gospel of it’s power? The Gospel is not just limited to John 3:16!!!  Your position says there is no grace received in baptism.  My position is there is abundant grace in baptism.  If there is any robbing being done, it is the position that baptism means nothing!!!!!

Sorry but I’m not sure I’ve used the phrase “false teacher” nor have I claimed that signs of faith from Evangelicals are the work of the enemy.  That’s ridiculous!  God grants us his graces in many ways and I would never consider this the work of the enemy.  As hard as it is for me to do, I even acknowledge the graces God grants through the Televangelists who preach the health and wealth Gospel!!!

Responding to 391 and 392

I am truely shocked at how far off these two post are---I am not just saying this to be mean I really am shocked especially after everything that has been posted.

What happened to Abraham will never be applied to anyone living today. Sacrificing animals, circumcision of flesh and the day of atonement is all finished.

The O.T. ways ended at the Resurrection and the N.T. salvation commandments begins. So do not attempt to apply the O.T. ways to yourselves---its is finished!

When the Jews boasted of being children of Abraham Jesus responded by saying 'God can raise up these stones to be children of Abraham' in other words that won't save you--it is meaningless today.

BAPTISM is the N.T. way to salvation.

Jesus does NOT believe in rituals!!

Jesus was baptized--WHY? To fullfill ALL righteousness--which means He was doing what was right and just.

In Acts 2:38 It says to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and you will receive the Holy Ghost.

I have said before that baptism does many things for us and one of the things is it puts us into a sonship relationship with the Father.

LOOK what happened when Jesus was baptized:
When He came out of the water the Holy Ghost fell upon Him and THEN the Father acknowledge Jesus and said, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'

Jesus's baptism Sounds very simular to Acts 2:38

Matthew 3
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus did not get the Holy Ghost and acknowledgement from the Father for just believing! HE fullfilled All righteousness and it pleased the Father!

Do you want to please the Father? Or your pastors/priests and church?

He fullfilled ALL righteousness!! YOU MUST do the same!

Jesus said to follow Him--do what I do--I am the good shepard and His true sheep will follow Him.

Not because it is a ritual but because it is a commandment to us.

Go into ALL nation and baptise!! WHY? BECAUSE Christ Jesus wants people to enter into His Kingdom by being born of the water and the spirit.

Baptism is not works -- Jesus called it fulfilling ALL righteousness.

STOP following RELIGION and follow Christ in 'The Faith' in the doctrine of salvation.

Born with sin...???

We learn that + it is written that after Noach The Almighty saw that youth/people from Childhood on are bad.
(Just as if The Almighty in all his Eternity never thought about that before or after....?)

I think ''Born in Sin'' is a typicall Church or NT dogma... maybe somebody can help me where it is written???

BUT

continuation (just clicked the wrong button)...

BUT luckely Noach found Mercy in the eyes of the LORD (so even without Jesus?)... And even though man sins there is a way out.
Noach was a rightious man in his Generation, but he was not perfect... maybe in another generation he might not have looked acted so rightious is what we lurn. Anyway if The Almighty is happy with it, who am I??

Nope. Sorry. No way.

WE ARE NOT BORN WITH SIN!!!!!!!!!!!!


We are though, born with a sinful nature. As the Hebrew bible says, we are inclined to sin from our YOUTH.

NOT BIRTH!!!!!

Read the bible. It's all there for you if you truly wish to understand it.

Must I post the verses???

YOU have been told this already and many times it written in this thread!

I already have posted many verses that are rejected---not my words but scriptures that I have posted verifying what I say and you have rejected them.

Sin has passed upon all flesh- NOW if you are interested in truth search the word for yourself then search your heart.

Read the previous posts--this is NOT a joke--this is very serious.

BTW--start posting scriptures to back up what you are saying as uneducated personal opinions annoy me.

'Sinning and the 'curse' are two different things. We inherited the curse and we do sin by nature---which is sinning by mistakes and by choice.
Hence we have communion to remit sin after we are baptized to remit the curse.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The sin of the world is the curse/death.

Being born under Adam we die--being reborn into Jesus we all live.

Revelation 22:3  KINGDOM
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

-I have not been arguing about the order of faith and baptism.  My position all along has been both/and and not either/or.  The argument I’ve made, and shown through scripture and church history, is that BAPTISM IS REGENERATIVE.  In other words, it is not merely symbolic as a minority of Christians teach.  We receive grace through faith AND we receive grace through baptism!!!!  Can a person be saved without baptism?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Can a person be saved without faith and without baptism (i.e. someone who has never heard the Gospel or is incapable of understanding due to age or mental disability)?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Can a person be saved through baptism and no faith (i.e. a child who dies before they are able to make a profession of faith)?  It is entirely up to God’s mercy.  Unlike many others in this forum, I do not judge anyone’s salvation.  I’ll challenge doctrine but never one’s standing before God.


The argument I’ve made, and shown through scripture and church history, is that BAPTISM IS REGENERATIVE.


WS did you read mine post before?


I given you evidence from The First century Church of 100ad that they held back baptism for about 2 years to teach The New baby christians about the scriptures.


It seems you want to fight Mine doctrine is older then yours etc... well WS guest what Mine view on baptism is over 1900 years old.

The O.T. ways ended at the Resurrection and the N.T. salvation commandments begins. So do not attempt to apply the O.T. ways to yourselves---its is finished!

When the Jews boasted of being children of Abraham Jesus responded by saying 'God can raise up these stones to be children of Abraham' in other words that won't save you--it is meaningless today.


willby Jesus said it is finish BEFORE he died anyone that DIED after Jesus is in The NT