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I AGREE DAN, EVERY WORD YOU SAID EXCEPT THAT YOU PROJECTED THE IDEA THAT ONE MUST BE A CATHOLIC TO BE SAVED. IM NOT SURE ABOUT THAT. NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT  ITS  THE WAY TO GO BUT I REMEMBER SOMETHING.

ONCE WHEN THE APOSTLES CAME TO JESUS AND COMPLAINED THAT OTHERS WERE PREACHING AND HEALING IN HIS NAME AND ASKED IF THEY SHOULD GO AND STOP THEM, JESUS SAID, " NO ONE WHO IS FOR ME, CAN BE AGAINST ME,"

MY CAR RADIO IS SET ON A NON CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN STATION AND THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY GOOD IN THEIR SERVICE TO THE LORD. I NEVER HEARD THESE PEOPLE BASH THE CATHOLIC AND EVEN I HEARD THEM SAY POSITVE THINGS.  A TRUE CHRISTIAN DOESNT GO AROUND BASHING THE SOURCE OF HIS LIGHT.

TO THE BASHERS:

THE CHURCH IS THE MOTHER OF ALL CHRISTIANS. EVEN SOME MODERN JUDAISTIC PRACTICES AND KNOWLEDGE COME FROM THE CHURCH. SHE CREATED THE FIRST NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE, AND UNTIL MARTIN LUTHER, EVERY CHRISTIAN WAS BELONGING TO HER.

THE LEGS AND FEET OF THE GIANT IMAGE IS ROME. WHILE THE TEN TOES REPRESENT THE TEN COUNTRIES OR PIECES THAT ROME BECAME WHEN THE ST-NE STRUCK IT AND BROKE IT TO PIECES. WE CAN SEE THAT THE TWO GIANT PILLARS ARE THE EASTERN AND WESTERN RITES OF THE CHURCH.

NOW MANY AMONG YOU SAY PETER IS NOT THE ROCK. BUT PETER WAS CALLED THE ROCK BY HIS FOLLOWERS. YOU SEE, JESUS REALYY DIDNT NAME HIM. HE CONFIRMED HIM. THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME TO HIM AT GALILEE WASNT NO ACCIDENT. HE WAS CHOSEN FOR HIS STEADFASTNESS AND TENACITY, A QUALITY THAT WAS KNOWN TO HIS FRIENDS AND WORKERS BEFORE JESUS APPEARED. AND LIKE YOU SAID, IT INCONCEIVEABLE THAT JESUS WOULD SAY LET THE GATES OF HELL PREVAIL AGAINST YAHWEHS POWER.  YAHWEH SWEPT AWAY TEN TRIBES TO PROTECT HIS NAME AND I DOUBT VERY SERIOUS THAT HE GOING TO LET CONSTANTINE UNDERMINE HIS WORD.

(FOR THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT THE CHURCH IS NOT LEGIT BECAUSE CONSTANTINE WASNT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, LET ME REMIND YOU THAT HE DOESNT HAVE TO BE, GOD CHOSES WHOM HE WILLS TO ACHIEVE HIS PURPOSE AND LOOKS TO ME LIKE CONSTANTINE DID THE JOB.)

IT TRUE THAT JESUS IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS BUT PETER, WITH THE HELP OF THE APOSTLES BUILT THE CHURCH AS LIKE WE SAY THAT MOSES WROTE THE TORAH. TO SAY THAT JESUS BUILT IT, SO TO DENY THE CATHOLICS, IS JUST DODGING AND CONTEMPTIBLE POSTURING. .JESUS DID IT ALL YOU DONT HAVE TO TELL US NOTHING.

IF YOUR PASTOR BASHES BROTHER CHRISTIANS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, HE IS NOT WITH CHRISTS AGENDA.  

THE TANAK IS NOT GOOD FOR TEACHING. IT GOOD FOR PROVING. YOU KNOW I ARGUE THIS.

IN THE BOOK OF PSALMS, DAVID SAYS, "AND THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, COME NOW AND SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND TIL I MAKE THY ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL." THIS FOR ME TRANSLATES TO:

"AND THE FATHER SAID TO THE SON, COME AND SIT IN THE SEAT OF MY POWER UNTIL ROME IS MADE THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR CHURCH".

NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE THE WITNESS FOR THE CHURCH HERE, YOU HAVE THE WITNESS TO TRINITY. "THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD..." DIDNT ANYONE TELL KING DAVID THAT 'GOD IS ONE'?  BOTH 'LORDS' ARE IN UNITY BY A HOLY SPIRIT AND THAT SPIRIT IS TO BUILD A NEW CITY AND A NEW TEMPLE FOR THE CHILDREN.

THE RIGHT HAND IS ALWAYS THE HAND THRU WHICH THE WORK IS PERFORMED. GOD IS WORKING THRU HIS SON JESUS, THE ARE TOGETHER AND THEY ARE GOING TO SET ROME DOWN BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ENEMY PERSECUTING THE EARLY CHRISTIANS.  YOU SEE HERE HOW THE LORD PROTECTS HIS NAME  BY GIVING ROME OVER TO THE VERY CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE BEING PERSECUTED. CONSTANTINE WAS A KEY FIGURE IN THE PURPOSE AND THE NAME OF THE LORD IS NOT DEFILED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH .

THE CHURCH IS THE MIGHTY RIVER. ALL THE WATERS OF THE WORD ORIGINALLY FLOW FROM HER AND JESUS IS THE MAN ON THAT RIVER. WE KNOW THAT THE MIGHT RIVER WAS 'SMITED' AND BROKEN INTO STREAMS. YOUR CHRISTIAN FAITH IS ONE OF THOSE STREAMS. IN THE EARLY CHURCH, THE STREAMS WERE SEVEN. THERE WERE SEVEN CHURCHES.

IF YOU DONT LIKE THE CHURCH THEN I SAY IT GOOD AT LEAST THAT YOU BELIEVE WITH JESUS. BUT AS JESUS ONCE TOLD THE HYPPOS WHO SAID THAT ZACHARIUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SLAIN BY THEIR FATHERS IF THEY HAD BEEN THERE,  "YOU ADMIT THEN THAT YOU ARE THE SONS OF MURDERS.

TO JUDGE YOUR MOTHER, IS TO JUDGE YOURSELF. DONT SPEAK ILL OF HER FOR SHE GAVE YOU BIRTH.

I NEVER SAW THAT WORD SATURDAY IN THE LAW. I SAW THE COMMANDENT TO TAKE ONE DAY IN SEVEN.

THE APOSTLES WERENT SPORT FISHING. THEY CAST HUGE NET AND TOOK THE 'FIRST FISH THAT CAME UP' AS INSTRUCTED BY JESUS.  WITH THIS IDEAL IN MIND, WE SEE THAT THE ADOPTION OF MEANINGLESS PAGAN SYMBOLS BY THE CHURCH IS SKILLFUL ASSIMILATION OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS BAIT TO CATCH FISH, AND IT WAS THE RIGHT BAIT IN MY OPINION. IF PAGANS GO TO CATHOLIC CHURCH BECAUSE SERVICES ARE ON SUNDAY, THEN THE APOSTLES DID THEIR JOBS WELL AND THE DECISION TO USE THE POWER GIVEN THE CHURCH TO "LOOSE" THE SABBATH FROM SATURDAY TO SUNDAY IS PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED. IF THE ROMAN DAY FOR HONORING THE GREAT ROMANS, (DEC 25) WAS SELECTED BY THE CHURCH AS THE DAY THEY WILL USE TO CELEBRATE JESUS' BIRTH, WE CAN SEE THAT THE PAGANS HEROS FADE AWAY AND JESUS REMAINS. AGAIN, THE FISHES IN THE GREAT SEA HAVE BEEN DRAWN TO THE LAND AND BECOME SANDS ON THE SHORE OF FAITH.  THE CHURCH DOES ALOT OF STUFF LIKE THIS.  THEY INSPIRED.

"IF YOU HAD FAITH, YOU WOULD PROPHESY TO THE MOUNTAIN, 'LIFT THYSELF UP AND CAST THYSELF INTO THE SEA'."   YOU THOUGHT THAT JESUS TELLING HIM THAT HE CAN LIFT EVEREST BY THE POWER OF FAITH?.  NO. THIS IS YOUR MINISTERS ERROR.

MY TRANSLATION: "PETER, IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT I AND THE FATHER PLANNING TO DO, YOU WILL SAY THAT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD WILL GO OUT TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD."

YOU SEE? AND 'THEY' WILL NOT HURT OR DESTROY ALL OF THIS KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE THE EARTH WILL BECOME FULL OF IT AS PROPHESIED BY ISAIAS AND DANIEL. THE KNOWLEDGE IS THE MOUNTAIN AND THE CHURCH IS THE SOURCE OF IT AND IS BUILT ON IT. THE GREAT SEA IS THE SEA OF HUMANITY FROM WHERE WE ARE FISHED BY THE APOSTLES.  

JESUS ESTABLISHES THE GOSPEL MOUNTIAN AND HE LEAVES HIS APOSTLES TO TOSS IT INTO THE GREAT SEA AS THE WILL OF GOD ENABLES THEM ,AND EMPOWERS THEM TO DO IT.


WHAT IS A GATE? HOW CAN A GATE PREVAIL? A GATE IS A THING TO PASS THRU. A GATE CAN ONLY PREVAIL IF ONE PASSES THRU IT. JESUS ASSURES US THAT THE CHURCH WILL NEVER PASS THRU IT.

THE CHURCH IS LEGIT. AND THE GATES OF HELL CANNOT PREVAIL.

WORD!

Does any pro-Catholic here have an answer to refute Bishop Hippolytus, the student of Irenaeus, who wrote:

"...the Holy Spirit, bequeathed unto the Church, which the Apostles, having in the first instance received, have transmitted to those who have rightly believed.  BUT WE, AS BEING THEIR SUCCESSORS, and participators in this grace, high priesthood, and office of teaching, as well as being reputed guardians of the Church, must not be found deficient in vigilance, or disposed to suppress correct doctrine."

Any comments as to what the role of the Christian bishops were in the era of Hippolytus (written ca. 222-225 A.D.) based on his above comment?
    Hippolytus was a bishop, who taken to Sardinia, and then to Rome, is
thought to have been martyred by being racked between horses, his limbs hyper-extended or torn off...and while still breathing, thrown into a canal and drowned in ca. 235-236 A.D.  His predecessor  generations were 3: the Apostle John taught Polycarp who taught Irenaeus who taught Hippolytus.  Thus, being a 4th generation witness of Apostolic tradition, and being only a 5th generation from Christ, he held more weight and Apostolic authority than any bishop (now labeled a so-called "pope") of Rome of his lifetime (ca. 170 - 235/236 A.D.).  

What do you think?

The teachings of Irenaeus refute papacy.

Case in point:  repeatedly any Church having a succession of presbyters or bishops directly to any apostle of Jesus, is a true witness of the One True Church.  Cf. Book/Chapter/Section  3.3.1., 3.24.1., 4.26.2., 4.26.5., 4.33.6., and 5.20.1. of Against Heresies.

Irenaeus repeatedly views Paul and Peter not only as equals (1.13.6, 4.35.2., for example), but Paul being inferred to as the greater missionary/Apostle (4.24.2.).

Now, we do acknowledge the Roman Catholic Church as being the Instrument in which G-D has brought His word down to us through the ages, from then until now.  However, my words not only have the same weight as any pope, but may also be (at certain times) of an  even greater authority and weight in the understanding and atonement in and from the spiritual realm...since papacy was an invention of deception that was implemented post-Nicene.  If, by the spirit of Grace, I persuade just one soul to true faith in Christ, it holds greater power than the persuading of one life to death.  For in catching men, we (in the Greek) capture them alive, whether for good or for evil.  

Irenaeus tells us that the Law of Moses ruled from Moses until John the Baptist (4.4.2.).  If that is the case, then I (and those who hear me) do not need a high priest on Earth, when I  (we) have an even greater, the Great Priest of Heaven, Jesus Christ; and in earth, the indwelling of G-D the Holy Spirit within me (us) --  (as all true born-again Christians do).

All the Apostles / Disciples of Jesus were priests of the Levitical Order and Lineage and as equals, with a simple "lot-drawn task" (as it were) of
leadership given to Peter -- not a Divine primogeniture and entail of sorts (4.8.3.).  If that were the case, it ceased from Rome and went to Alexandria with Mark and the Coptics in the late 50s A.D.  No.  As I explained before, the Churches everywhere having successions of presbyters and bishops traceable to the Apostles -- be they at Antioch, or Corinth, or Ephesus, or wherever -- were on equal standing.  We also owe a great debt to these as well, for they taught us that no earthly man is our mediator; only the Great Priest Christ Jesus in Heaven attains that.  That is why He tells us to personally pray to the Father in John's Gospel...but then, John is the one from whose succession Irenaeus came, and the papacy (and its earthly minded defenders)  can't accept that.  

If I am mistaken, then where?  And in what way?  Let us cite the pre-230 A.D.  ancients.  I invite your responses.  Shalom.  

What of John the Baptist, who baptized for the remission of sins in a river apart from the Temple at Jerusalem?  Has Jesus or Peter or Judaism rebuked John for this?  How curious that everyone seems silent on this man, Jew - Catholic - Agnostic - Atheist - Muslim - etc.  Why is this?  If John merely acted as a witness, then consecration occurred here between the idividual and G-D, did it not?  Any thoughts?

I never said the gates of hell prevailed. Yeshua said that they shall NOT prevail. It does not say that HaSatan will kreep in and teach sow tares okong the wheat. Matter of Fact, Rav Shaul said that there are those in the last times that will depart from the faith. and preach Damnible heresies (many so called Chrsitains).  You see HaSatan as an enimy, but me, I see HaSatan as a servant, who serves a purpose. YHWH has always perserved a righteous remnant that kept the truth of Yah's words. He has perserved a remnant that kept HIS Torah. And taught the Gospel by faith alone apart from works.  And sorry Katrina, but Light and darkness have cannot live with each other. Yahweh has commanded that we should not intermingle with the pagans. Catholicism is a mixture of Paganism and Christianity

Did any of you know that the influence of the early Churches resided within a 100 mile radius until the 4th Century A.D., including the influence at Rome?  This is the suburbicary region with its suburbicary churches.  The leaders of these various churches made up a council of the presbytery.  Those of the cities were likened to subordinate bishops and presbyters/ministers, as it were.  

The Nicean Council deemed Alexandria to be on equal par with Rome at its own era. Rome's influence was then from about Milan to Sicily. After Victor's Praexas failed, the next bishop was thought of as an incompetent fool by members of his own Synod of Presbyters.  This is the testimony of Hippolytus concerning Zephyrinus.  Further, the doctrine of infallibility began with Callistus the Heretic through Zephyrinus circa 203 A.D., and was perfected by Nicholas I (858 A.D.) and others who followed in succession to him.

The Catholic Church is rich in tradition, and the stewardship of the transmittance and transferrance of  Bible manuscripts.  Though filled with many distractions of saints, and rituals, it still has (I believe) genuine brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ within its ranks.  I think Pope Benedict is probably as good a pope as that branch has had in many years.  History teaches us, when we make gods out of men, we find ourselves betrayed and sorely disappointed.  The Apostle Peter, for all his zeal knew this.  We should not deify men, quibbling and shuffling about whether a punctuatory mark over the first alpha exists in "pa'pas", or if it is by a secondary alphic punctuation as "papa>s" in which we can exalt a man from the inferior to the superior status among men and Church.  

Catholicism, like Coptic Christianity, is one of Two Great Witnesses that links us to the very time of the Apostles themselves.  For this, we owe each a debt of gratitude in solidifying our faith. We give thanks to G-D for this, not to the institution.  If they Shepherd us, it is by our free will and trust...it is not by some odd quote of Scripture and Divine Right, and threats to shut us out of Heaven and the very presence of G-D.  Jesus countermands this with John 6:37,44; 7:37;Matthew 11:28.  In Germany, the pre-Lutheran Catholic statues of the priests held the bible hidden to the chest.  After Luther, they display it to the congregation.  Protestant, Catholic, and Jew...we are all in this together, and must look now to the good each can bring to the One True Faith: in Jesus Christ, and His work at the Cross, the centerpiece of all time and attention in this Creation.  

Any thoughts?  Any points to ponder?    Shalom.  

As a member of the Nazarene Church recently attending a Messianic Synagogue, I might have vast theological differences from someone like Katrina.  But you know what!  I regard her consistent high quality character as a TRUE example of the Messiah's love, someone who has been transformed, even though she and I may not agree on all things on paper.  Throughout my years, I have discovered more and more that Yahweh admires commitment to love more than commitment to doctrine.  Katrina, I am impressed with your gentle response, and I am not above taking character lessons from a Roman Catholic.  

Warrior of Yeshua, to a large extent, I lean more theologically towards most of the views of Messianic Judaism in general, but I do not support your devisive condemnational stance.  Both the theology and the approach of it do not seem biblical to me.  I would cite examples of my points from scripture, but I've done this sort of thing with Nancy. Also, you must have missed a message I left you a message in another thread a couple week weeks ago where I did cite a scriptural passage.  Its great to be theologically sound, but that should never take the place of being a loving example.   If for some reason, you feel led to correct someone's way or reveal their error, a less harsh approach would more likely produce desirable results.  Christ has given us all including you the power to let your light shine before men and guide them truth.  But if you choose become a scourge before men, you will only drive them
away.

Yes, we need a more loving Church...but some, like myself, whether through life experiences / personality / whatever, aren't gifted in this area.  We all can love, but we all have differing degrees and talents of expression.

          We need the WHOLE counsel of G-D.  Sound doctrine and instruction is just as important, it cannot be left out. Without it, the fruit rots, disease and worms corrupt, and the tree withers and dies. Then what is the judgement upon that tree?  It is ruled as "bad" and is cut down and used for firewood.

The Corinthians and Asiatics taught us that if we carry the "love" doctrine too far, we enter the fleshly realm of orgies, fornication, adulteries, idolatry, and all sorts of wayward stuff that leads us away from the salvation of what G-D the Son did at the Cross.  

     "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore...."
                                                          Revelation 3:19

     "Except your Righteousness [dikaiosune] shall overflowingly exceed [perisseuse] of you more than the scribes and Pharisees, in no way shall you go into the Kingdom of the Heavens."   Matthew 5:20

To" rebuke", in Revelation 3:19,  is "to reprove with conviction upon the offender."  Peter called the 25 leaders who moved the other 45 of the Sanhedrin to kill Christ as "murderers" in Acts 2.  This wasn't "Lovey dovey, you crucified Jesus, let me give you a love-hug;" now was it?  
We are not called to love the sin AND the sinner, you know.

There's also the word "chasten" (in Revelation 1:19) which in the Greek is related to the word for child, and the concept of the strap and the wood-shed, of beating rebellion or waywardness out of the child who rebels from sound behavior.   And Jesus literally whipped the money-changers and others, and soundly beat down violently scores of men who resisted him.  If you understand how crowded the Mount was, and how many He grown men He had to beat down, and the endurance and strength it took,  you might put the act in the "manly pugalist" or iron-man class of John L. Sullivan.

The word "Righteousness" (in the Greek) is the antithesis or antonym of "Lawlessness".  It is like having a Wyatt Earp, even if by violence, to clean up the lawlessness and disorder of Dodge City or Tombstone.  If sound doctrine convicts, it is meant to upon the ones in a lawless state or those who are having a leaning or "bent" in that direction.  When we stray from sound doctrine, we say commit the same waywardness as found in Judges 21:25.

Even Jesus says, "Judge you RIGHTEOUS judgement...not according to appearance." (John 7:24) Learning Scripture, and history, and application isn't a sin.  For one day, we shall sit down at the feet of HASHEM (Deut. 33:3), and be taught of G-D (Isaiah 54:13) in ways and instructions far beyond we can even begin to comprehend now.  

Wouldn't it be something if it were like a 360 degree 3-D holographic of history as it really happened, so it is truly like being there, as the Bible events unfold before you, and you are discussing everything with G-D Himself?  Do any of you think such a concept would be "having Church"?