JFJ Forums

Goy,
When I first came to this forum, you were ragging on Sheitl Queen. Now you're ragging on a these posters. You will never find a forum where you have everyone agreeing with you.

You need to grow up. This forum isn't about "Christians"--it is about pointing  Jewish people to their Messiah.

By the way, to chow_woman, I "rag" on all sides, just like Bill O'Reilly critiques all sides; and, I know this is hard to believe, but I even rag on myself when necessary.

By the way, to chow_woman, Ripley's, and anyone else who assumes that I'm going only after certain people, I even correct Jewish and gentile Christians, including myself, who are not Judaizers when they need to be corrected. Also, "Judaizers" means "P'rushim" or "legalists". Wikipedia shows what two degrees of Judaizing I criticize, which are "a) Adherence by Gentile Christians of Torah Laws intended for Israelites (i.e. the 613 Laws given to Israel at Sinai)." and "b) Adherence by Gentile Christians of Torah Laws intended for Gentiles."

I originally argued:

Responding to GOY's post #41:

As a gentile at a Jewish website, frankly it puzzles me to read about what [Judaizing] gentiles think of gentiles in the Church, with the accusations, the namecalling, the preening, and the contempt.  And if it puzzles me, how edifying is this to a Jew who is having private thoughts toward whether Y'shua is genuine, or worse, to a Jew who has no thoughts toward Y'shua and dismisses this as more gentile insanity?

In Jans' testimony, she relates how she prayed to God for the truth.  But would Jans say this sort of repartee would have drawn her to pray as she did before she believed?

When gentiles come here to promote another gospel, it is the same as those Jews who come here to promote rejection of Y'shua.  Both need to be answered by born again believers, Jew or gentile.  How much posting time and space accorded gentile cultists should not be determined by the fact they are Judaizing gentiles; but by how much relevance the answering of them has to what Jewish people around the world need to know about Jesus.

Hi Ripley,

I don't see any links in this thread to the other threads that are being referenced.  I can hunt for them easy enough though.  But I agree with much of your criticism of Christiandom, e.g. we should celebrate the fulfillment of the Jewish feasts in Yeshua vs. Christmas, Easter, etc.  But I don't think your argument that since the first Christians (who were Jews) kept much of the Sinai covenant that we should is very strong.  Even if the first gentile converts kept much of the law, that doesn't mean we should.  Much of it they kept to keep the peace (as Paul suggests we should do as applicable and as Paul specifically asked his gentile apostles in certain circumstances, e.g. in a circumcision) and because of it's beauty and teaching value.  But, I think (and I think Paul would agree), these observances are a means to an end.  If they are helpful, use them, if not, don't.  I don't think literal obedience to all of them is necessarily helpful today.  Again, I think observing the annual feasts is typically helpful and some other traditions are helpful, but we shouldn't give others (e.g. unbelieving Jews) the impression we are "keeping the law" - for multiple reasons (e.g. they may think we are deceptive, performing works righteousness, etc).

Regarding the "first" day of the week in the NT.  Are you suggesting it should be translated "last"?  I think I'm missing your point.

Here's a good article on the Sabbath.  I have a good PDF from Dr. Morey on the topic too I could send you.  The bottom line is that the Sabbath law was specifically for Israel and was literally strictly about not working.  It was never for required of Gentiles and never about worship.  But to follow what the Sabbath points us to is of course to trust in the finished work of Messiah.  We should follow what symbol points to, not the symbol right?  Isn't that the message of Hebrews?  There's a good mp3 on the Sabbath here (1/12/07).

I hope you don't see my response as an indication that I agree with this thread's attack on you.  Quite the opposite - I think the attack is WAY out of line.  I just wanted to interact with some of your individual points that I didn't agree with (or understand).  We are agreement on many of your criticisms of Catholicism and early Christiandom.

Blessings in Messiah!

p.s.  BTW everyone, I think we should refrain from using the term Judaizing.  I think it is often (understandably) interpreted by Jewish people to be racist and has the effect (even if unintented) of promoting anti-semitism.  It's in the same category as the expression "he Jewed me out of my money".  Both expressions seem clearly racist (assuming a particular moral flaw in a specific race) to me.

What also needs to be addressed is the fact that many non-Messianic Jewish people become Jewish Christians who "Romanize" themselves in order to escape cohanic Judaism, because many cohanim try to make themselves "ravim" and teach mitzvot-adam as Torah. The testimony of Natan'el Kapner shows how Judaizing can embitter Christian and non-Christian Jewish people in regards to Messianic Judaism and Judaism.

TRUTH IS GOOD

GoyOfY'shua: ... I even correct Jewish and gentile Christians...

Faith: You correct no one.

In fact, you can't scripturally refute honor of 7th day Sabbath and Feasts through Christ and therefore choose the way of malign. Moreover, your premises are of such faulty significance showing inability to distinguish the stark differences between Judaism and Christianity.

I've seen your arrogance towards unbelieving Jews, Sheitl Woman and SMR among a few, even as you advertise yourself available for a relationship with Jewish men here too!

Let's be real. Since you're obviously hoping some nice Jewish guy will come and wisk you off your feet, I have to tell you, your rejection of Sabbath's and Festivals doesn't help your cause.

Regardless you initially posted your Gentile heritage and have now reverted to a ridiculous gnat straining of presumed Jewish heritage. What is it... something like .00001 of a percent? With no Jewish cultural background to boot? All it reveals is your self-hatred, your self-rejection, and you think your going to project that on me? Not.

FYI: Your chances of landing a nice Jewish guy, as your posts disingenuously indicate, would vastly improve if you honored Sabbath and the Festivals ~ because clearly you care less for the ways of Christ.

Last, MIKVEH would be a huge advantage for you since Jewish guys, even secular ones, honor such regarding women, otherwise you're simply viewed as UNCLEAN. Oh! surprise!

GoyOfY'shua: ...Yisra'el was not righteous...because of...the goyim...

Faith: Um.. hum.. right 'GOY'

With all sincere due respect, my brother, the bottom line is that Sabbath was made holy ON the 7th day and not on Sinai. And again, WADR, Sunday has become a Christian Law. To say it isn't is not being truthful.

Let's quit acting like there aren't "rules followed".. THERE ARE.

Sunday worship is universally OBSERVED and completely and wholly Roman. I will find the many links that evidence it. Even quotes by Roman Catholics who say (leveled against Reformers/Protestants) that if they really believed in "sola scriptura" they would revert to Sabbath as the day of gathering/learning/worship, because there is no other authority, certainly NOT scripture, that would point to Sunday, outside of the Roman Catholic Church, and their self-proclaimed authority, and anti-Semitism.

Resurrection is observed ANNUALLY, too.  And not in conjunction with the day we KNOW as the day of sacrifice: 14th of Nisan. It has been replaced, with no scriptual basis, to be "first Sunday" Easter.

ALL of these things were done with force, up to and including MURDER. Not just murder of unbelievers (as if that would be ok), but of their CHRISTIAN BROTHERS.

Now we say, "It doesn't really matter, because we are under grace. And we have the real thing rather than the shadow of it." I think it DOES matter. Not that we must follow as pharisees, or even as Mosaic Law outlines, but that we do whatever we do on the day HE set aside as **HOLY** (Doesn't "holy" mean anything to us??)

-cont-

Christ is our foundation, HE established and kept Sabbath (on the 7th day, our Creator, not just during His incarnation). If our Holy God observed it, why wouldn't we? Just like baptism? Jesus did it, for what reason? To be cleansed of sin? CERTAINLY NOT! But He did it as an example for us to follow. As a means of salvation? NO!! But as a public ceremony that shows we are united with Christ. (Like a marriage ceremony.)

There are precepts that are revealed in Genesis that are for all mankind. And one of those, IMO, is Sabbath. (Not MERELY a rest from work, but a day to focus on Him, and YES! the fulfilled rest we get in/from Christ, individually and  corporately...LIKE WE *DO* ON SUNDAY.)

Take all the pharisaic connotations of "observe" and "keep" out of the discussion. This is not about that. This is about a right way/attitude about Sabbath, NOT the legalistic, self-righteousness that was the wrong attitude about Torah observance, even when Jews were under the letter of Torah, anyway.

-one more thought about "election/chosen"...I bet you can guess where I am going with it... -LOL-

-cont-

We stand alot on "election" and "chosen"... as it pertains to Israel and our individual salvation.

Well, with Sabbath, we have a description of *a day* that God TELLS US SPECIFICALLY HE CHOSE/ELECTED to be HOLY, just as we are chosen/elected to be a HOLY PRIESTHOOD.

Is Sabbath better than any other day? No. Just like Israel is nothing in herself. The church either.  But set apart they are, by His Authority. It's their election that makes them special and holy; set apart for His purpose.

And so is Sabbath.




Yes and no. It says "first" which, by Hebrew time-keeping is anytime after sundown on the last day of the week; Sabbath. According to Roman/Gentile time-keeping that same time period (evening to midnight) is STILL Saturday, not Sunday.

So, what I am saying is that many of the scriptures in the New Testament that are talking about Saturday EVENING are translated "first day of the week" which to OUR EARS means Sunday...which is not a truly correct translation with which we can really understand, and has lead to wrong/incorrect (although not damning) justification of practice.

We are reading writings from a Jewish perspective with Gentile eyes. And reading into the text what is not there.