08-16-2008, 09:52 AM
08-16-2008, 09:54 AM
Roman Catholic quotes about Sunday/Sabbath and RCC authority, these in this section, scroll down on page linked:
The above and more quotes found HERE (A sabbatarian site, but still these are referenced quotes)
Quote:
Who do we Reverence Keeping Sunday Holy?
“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.
“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
“From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God - an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects which profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church.” Henry Gibson, Catechism Made Easy, # 2, 9th edition, vol. 1, p. 341-342.
“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802.
“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.
“It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.
“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.
“From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God - an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects which profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church.” Henry Gibson, Catechism Made Easy, # 2, 9th edition, vol. 1, p. 341-342.
“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802.
The above and more quotes found HERE (A sabbatarian site, but still these are referenced quotes)
08-16-2008, 10:49 AM
What I truly ask for everyone's consideration is "what would the church worldwide, Jew and gentile in genology, be practicing had it not been for the edicts pronounced by the RCC, and enforced by the Holy Roman Empire so many centuries ago, and we *indeed* did go by scripture alone."
08-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Goy~
But what people need to look at is that they will be junping out of the pot and into the fire (in other words, same difference):
1) Roman Catholicism asserts unique God-given supreme Authority via Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession. With which they "can make it up as they go along", adding and/or subtracting from God's written word. (Mariology, beatification, pergatory, transubstantiation, Sabbath-to-Sunday, etc.).
a) The doctrine of Sacred Tradtion is shored up by the doctrine of Oral Tradition/Torah. There is no scriptural basis for Oral Tradition/Torah, therefore there is no basis for Sacred Tradtion either. (Jesus rebuked oral tradition.)
b) Peter was not the supreme/sole voice of God on earth (like Pope's) even during his lifetime. AND other apostles established other congregations in other parts of the world, and have the same claim to "Apostolic Succession" (ie: Polycarp) but were ignored, excommunicated, etc.
c) Apostolic teaching/direction/practice is found in the NT. We don't need to honor the commentary of "the follower of the follower of the follower of (insert Apostle's name here)". We have the first-hand eyewitness accounts.
2) Roman Catholicism appeals to the writings and history of the "church fathers" (Catholic Talmud, if you will), while "true" Christianity appeals to scripture and the Holy Spirit.
3) Roman Catholicism teaches that we are *participating* in our salvation by/through works (semi-self-righteousness is still self-righteousness).
4) The RCC/Holy Roman Empire enforced all of the above with excommunication (which we do not understand the full weight of that since they are not in power today like they were in the past), torture, and death. Not only of professing non-Christians, but of professing Christians: TRUE Christians ALSO.
So, sorry if it offends some people for me to equate the RCC proper with Pharisaic Talmidism. But, hello! It happens to be the truth.
I do not condemn individuals, but I will condemn teachings, and the organizations that forward them. (Just like any of YOU would with Mormonism.)
I know born-again Catholics, and unsaved ones. Just like I know born-again any-number-of-denomination-members, and unsaved ones as well.
Quote:
What also needs to be addressed is the fact that many non-Messianic Jewish people become Jewish Christians who "Romanize" themselves in order to escape cohanic Judaism, because many cohanim try to make themselves "ravim" and teach mitzvot-adam as Torah.
But what people need to look at is that they will be junping out of the pot and into the fire (in other words, same difference):
1) Roman Catholicism asserts unique God-given supreme Authority via Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession. With which they "can make it up as they go along", adding and/or subtracting from God's written word. (Mariology, beatification, pergatory, transubstantiation, Sabbath-to-Sunday, etc.).
a) The doctrine of Sacred Tradtion is shored up by the doctrine of Oral Tradition/Torah. There is no scriptural basis for Oral Tradition/Torah, therefore there is no basis for Sacred Tradtion either. (Jesus rebuked oral tradition.)
b) Peter was not the supreme/sole voice of God on earth (like Pope's) even during his lifetime. AND other apostles established other congregations in other parts of the world, and have the same claim to "Apostolic Succession" (ie: Polycarp) but were ignored, excommunicated, etc.
c) Apostolic teaching/direction/practice is found in the NT. We don't need to honor the commentary of "the follower of the follower of the follower of (insert Apostle's name here)". We have the first-hand eyewitness accounts.
2) Roman Catholicism appeals to the writings and history of the "church fathers" (Catholic Talmud, if you will), while "true" Christianity appeals to scripture and the Holy Spirit.
3) Roman Catholicism teaches that we are *participating* in our salvation by/through works (semi-self-righteousness is still self-righteousness).
4) The RCC/Holy Roman Empire enforced all of the above with excommunication (which we do not understand the full weight of that since they are not in power today like they were in the past), torture, and death. Not only of professing non-Christians, but of professing Christians: TRUE Christians ALSO.
So, sorry if it offends some people for me to equate the RCC proper with Pharisaic Talmidism. But, hello! It happens to be the truth.
I do not condemn individuals, but I will condemn teachings, and the organizations that forward them. (Just like any of YOU would with Mormonism.)
I know born-again Catholics, and unsaved ones. Just like I know born-again any-number-of-denomination-members, and unsaved ones as well.
08-16-2008, 01:42 PM
Faith Wrote:
GoyOfY'shua: ...Yisra'el was not righteous...because of...the goyim...
Faith: Um.. hum.. right 'GOY'

Besides all the other slander of me and Tanakh and Brit Chadashah that you posted, your anti-gentile and anti-Jewish statement needs to be addressed.
Moshe ben-Amram, as instructed to write, and as translated by Dr. David H. Stern, Wrote:
The Complete Jewish Bible
Deuteronomy (D'varim) 9 Read This Chapter
9:1
"Listen, Isra'el! You are to cross the Yarden today, to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, great cities fortified up to the sky;
9:2
a people great and tall, the 'Anakim, whom you know about and of whom you have heard it said, 'Who can stand before the descendants of 'Anak?'
9:3
Therefore understand today that ADONAI your God will himself cross ahead of you as a devouring fire; he will destroy them and bring them down before you. Thus will you drive them out and cause them to perish quickly, as ADONAI has said to you.
9:4
"Don't think to yourself, after your God has pushed them out ahead of you, 'It is to reward my righteousness that ADONAI has brought me in to take possession of this land.' No, it is because these nations have been so wicked that ADONAI is driving them out ahead of you.
9:5
It is not because of your righteousness, or because your heart is so upright, that you go in to take possession of their land; but to punish the wickedness of these nations that ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you, and also to confirm the word which ADONAI swore to your ancestors, Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov.
9:6
Therefore, understand that it is not for your righteousness that ADONAI your God is giving you this good land to possess. "For you are a stiffnecked people!
9:7
Remember, don't forget, how you made ADONAI your God angry in the desert. From the day you left the land of Egypt till you arrived at this place, you have been rebelling against ADONAI.
9:8
Also in Horev you made ADONAI angry -ADONAI was angry enough with you to destroy you!
9:9
I had gone up the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets on which was written the covenant ADONAI had made with you. I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights without eating food or drinking water.
9:10
Then ADONAI gave me the two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God; and on them was written every word ADONAI had said to you from the fire on the mountain the day of the assembly.
08-16-2008, 01:46 PM
ThirdDay Wrote:
p.s. BTW everyone, I think we should refrain from using the term Judaizing. I think it is often (understandably) interpreted by Jewish people to be racist and has the effect (even if unintented) of promoting anti-semitism. It's in the same category as the expression "he Jewed me out of my money". Both expressions seem clearly racist (assuming a particular moral flaw in a specific race) to me.
ThirdDay,
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:
Especially to Ripley's, Shabbis Goy, and Faith, pay attention. There is a fine line between being denominationally Messianic Jewish and a Judaizer... The motive behind an action, such as washing or not washing hands or keeping the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday, is what makes an action clean or treif. Keeping Torah is a matter of choice, but don't Judaize.
08-16-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm not on here to seek a Jewish or gentile man. Also, I'm 3/16, or 18.75%, patrilineally Jewish; and before I knew that I was Jewish, I assumed myself to be a European-American gentile. Also, Paul testifies, in Philppians 3,
3 For it is we who are the Circumcised, we who worship by the Spirit of God and make our boast in the Messiah Yeshua! We do not put confidence in human qualifications,
4 even though I certainly have grounds for putting confidence in such things. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for putting confidence in human qualifications, I have better grounds: 5 b'rit-milah on the eighth day, by birth belonging to the people of Isra'el, from the tribe of Binyamin, a Hebrew-speaker, with Hebrew-speaking parents, in regard to the Torah, a Parush, 6 in regard to zeal, a persecutor of the Messianic Community, in regard to the righteousness demanded by legalism, blameless. 7 But the things that used to be advantages for me, I have, because of the Messiah, come to consider a disadvantage. 8 Not only that, but I consider everything a disadvantage in comparison with the supreme value of knowing the Messiah Yeshua as my Lord. It was because of him that I gave up everything and regard it all as garbage, in order to gain the Messiah
9 and be found in union with him, not having any righteousness of my own based on legalism, but having that righteousness which comes through the Messiah's faithfulness, the righteousness from God based on trust. 10 Yes, I gave it all up in order to know him, that is, to know the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings as I am being conformed to his death, 11 so that somehow I might arrive at being resurrected from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already obtained it or already reached the goal - no, I keep pursuing it in the hope of taking hold of that for which the Messiah Yeshua took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I, for my part, do not think of myself as having yet gotten hold of it; but one thing I do: forgetting what is behind me and straining forward toward what lies ahead, 14 I keep pursuing the goal in order to win the prize offered by God's upward calling in the Messiah Yeshua.
Quote:
3 For it is we who are the Circumcised, we who worship by the Spirit of God and make our boast in the Messiah Yeshua! We do not put confidence in human qualifications,
4 even though I certainly have grounds for putting confidence in such things. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for putting confidence in human qualifications, I have better grounds: 5 b'rit-milah on the eighth day, by birth belonging to the people of Isra'el, from the tribe of Binyamin, a Hebrew-speaker, with Hebrew-speaking parents, in regard to the Torah, a Parush, 6 in regard to zeal, a persecutor of the Messianic Community, in regard to the righteousness demanded by legalism, blameless. 7 But the things that used to be advantages for me, I have, because of the Messiah, come to consider a disadvantage. 8 Not only that, but I consider everything a disadvantage in comparison with the supreme value of knowing the Messiah Yeshua as my Lord. It was because of him that I gave up everything and regard it all as garbage, in order to gain the Messiah
9 and be found in union with him, not having any righteousness of my own based on legalism, but having that righteousness which comes through the Messiah's faithfulness, the righteousness from God based on trust. 10 Yes, I gave it all up in order to know him, that is, to know the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings as I am being conformed to his death, 11 so that somehow I might arrive at being resurrected from the dead. 12 It is not that I have already obtained it or already reached the goal - no, I keep pursuing it in the hope of taking hold of that for which the Messiah Yeshua took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I, for my part, do not think of myself as having yet gotten hold of it; but one thing I do: forgetting what is behind me and straining forward toward what lies ahead, 14 I keep pursuing the goal in order to win the prize offered by God's upward calling in the Messiah Yeshua.
08-16-2008, 02:10 PM
We later read that Paul expresses to the Galatians wishes worse on Judaizers like you than you could wish on me:
Galatians 5:1-12
1 What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don't let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! 3 Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! 4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God's grace! 5 For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. 6 When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. 7 You were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? 8 Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. 9 "It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. 11 And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. 12 I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!
TRUTH IS GOOD
GoyOfY'shua: ... I even correct Jewish and gentile Christians...
Faith: You correct no one.
Quote:
Galatians 5:1-12
1 What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don't let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words - I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you undergo b'rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! 3 Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b'rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! 4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God's grace! 5 For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. 6 When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. 7 You were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? 8 Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. 9 "It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. 11 And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. 12 I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves!
Faith Wrote:
TRUTH IS GOOD
GoyOfY'shua: ... I even correct Jewish and gentile Christians...
Faith: You correct no one.
08-16-2008, 05:41 PM
TD~
I think we miss the depth the bible offers, and the supreme perfection of His word and the Messiah's perfect fulfillment and complete exactness regarding the feasts. And we should KNOW the ones yet fulfilled!!
We Gentiles gloss over it superficially, don't understand it in most cases, and "it doesn't apply to us, it's for the Jews". Individuals and congregations.
Had we NOT been split congregationally, by anti-Semitic edicts, however, I think this would not be the case. I/we would be fellowshipping with Messianic Jews in my/our own synagogue/church building, and we would all be at home there and celebrate the feasts together, bringing their real significance to ME and MY LIFE, the CHURCH and IT'S "LIFE", with the correct perspective: FAITH in Messiah. We aren't under the Law and don't HAVE to observe them, but *OH!* how we have been deprived!! It's like eating at Sizzler when we have been offered Ruth's Chris Steakhouse! (Not to minimize the church and what we DO get: THE Gospel, that's ALL we need. But I want the "full screen version", not the "sized for my TV" version. You know what I mean?)
Quote:
But I agree with much of your criticism of Christiandom, e.g. we should celebrate the fulfillment of the Jewish feasts
I think we miss the depth the bible offers, and the supreme perfection of His word and the Messiah's perfect fulfillment and complete exactness regarding the feasts. And we should KNOW the ones yet fulfilled!!
We Gentiles gloss over it superficially, don't understand it in most cases, and "it doesn't apply to us, it's for the Jews". Individuals and congregations.
Had we NOT been split congregationally, by anti-Semitic edicts, however, I think this would not be the case. I/we would be fellowshipping with Messianic Jews in my/our own synagogue/church building, and we would all be at home there and celebrate the feasts together, bringing their real significance to ME and MY LIFE, the CHURCH and IT'S "LIFE", with the correct perspective: FAITH in Messiah. We aren't under the Law and don't HAVE to observe them, but *OH!* how we have been deprived!! It's like eating at Sizzler when we have been offered Ruth's Chris Steakhouse! (Not to minimize the church and what we DO get: THE Gospel, that's ALL we need. But I want the "full screen version", not the "sized for my TV" version. You know what I mean?)
08-17-2008, 07:42 AM
TD!!
I have been listening to the mp3's...and I urge everyone to listen to the first 7 minutes of this one: 1/26/05 7 Feasts of Israel (1) (second to last in the list on the bottom of page), to hear my sentiments expressed PERFECTLY!
I have been listening to the mp3's...and I urge everyone to listen to the first 7 minutes of this one: 1/26/05 7 Feasts of Israel (1) (second to last in the list on the bottom of page), to hear my sentiments expressed PERFECTLY!