JFJ Forums - Jewishness and Judaizing

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

To Baptistic, Prowler, sugarman, Aad2, and other Jewish and gentile Christians who aren't Judaizers:

Does anyone else want to get Jans and other moderators to kick Ripley's, Faith, and others off the forum for discrimination against Christians who are denominationally Roman Catholic and Protestant, and who celebrate Christmas, Easter, and the Sabbath on Sunday?

I have been away for a week and another person has been covering for me during that time, so my response is delayed. Sorry for the delay.

The forum rules say that people are allowed to post theological opinions that disagree with Jews for Jesus theological stance.

As far as voting who gets kicked off of the forum, moderating is not done by vote. Consider me a hopefully benevolent dictator.

I think just about everyone who participates on this forum has had a complaint against them so if I kicked everyone off this forum because someone complained, I'd be pretty lonely here. Actually, if I kicked everyone off this forum who has been complained about, I would have had to kick myself off the forum too.

Don't worry Ms. Jans. God has yet to show me how anybody could possibly Judaize a Messianic Jew.

I don't mind the differences so much as I mind the way that people act on them. For example, Paul warns about the Judaizers who encroach on Jewish and gentile Christians:

Quote:

Galatians 2:4-5
2:4
Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in - they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us.
2:5
Not even for a minute did we give in to them, so that the truth of the Good News might be preserved for you.

The question was concerning the necessity of brit milah as a means for salvation and santification; but Paul warns Titus and others in leadership positions or leadership candidacies to back away from a Judaistic enviroment:

Quote:

Titus 1:9-16
1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy Message that agrees with the doctrine; so that by his sound teaching he will be able to exhort and encourage, and also to refute those who speak against it.
1:10
For there are many, especially from the Circumcision faction, who are rebellious, who delude people's minds with their worthless and misleading talk.
1:11
They must be silenced; because they are upsetting entire households by teaching what they have no business teaching, and doing it for the sake of dishonest gain.
1:12
Even one of the Cretans' own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" -
1:13
and it's true! For this reason, you must be severe when you rebuke those who have followed this false teaching, so that they will come to be sound in their trust
1:14
and no longer pay attention to Judaistic myths or to the commands of people who reject the truth.
1:15
To all who are themselves pure, everything is pure. But to those who are defiled and without trust, nothing is pure - even their minds and consciences have been defiled.
1:16
They claim to know God, but with their actions they deny him. They are detestable and disobedient; they have proved themselves unfit to do anything good.

Jans Wrote:

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

To Baptistic, Prowler, sugarman, Aad2, and other Jewish and gentile Christians who aren't Judaizers:

Does anyone else want to get Jans and other moderators to kick Ripley's, Faith, and others off the forum for discrimination against Christians who are denominationally Roman Catholic and Protestant, and who celebrate Christmas, Easter, and the Sabbath on Sunday?

I have been away for a week and another person has been covering for me during that time, so my response is delayed. Sorry for the delay.

The forum rules say that people are allowed to post theological opinions that disagree with Jews for Jesus theological stance...

Ripley's Wrote:

Goy~

Quote:

What also needs to be addressed is the fact that many non-Messianic Jewish people become Jewish Christians who "Romanize" themselves in order to escape cohanic Judaism, because many cohanim try to make themselves "ravim" and teach mitzvot-adam as Torah.

But what people need to look at is that they will be junping out of the pot and into the fire (in other words, same difference):

Tell my Jewish friend, my Jewish family members who were saved, and Natan'el Kapner that; and you'll get a whole lot more than being spoken of as a Judaizer. A Roman Catholic who is a Christian is better off than an unsaved professing "Messianic" Jewish or gentil person.

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

I don't mind the differences so much as I mind the way that people act on them. For example, Paul warns about the Judaizers who encroach on Jewish and gentile Christians:

Just for everyones information, I don't agree with Ripleys, Faiths or Goys view concerning this discussion on the Sabbath. This topic is being discussed quite passionately by all. If I chose to enter the discussion, there would be a third opinion.

However, from what I have read, I agree with Ripley, Faith and Goy on who Jesus is and how one must be saved. We are all in agreement as should be with believers.

Now as far as 'Judaizer', the term is not used in the majority of English translations of scripture. It is used more commonly in extra-biblical writings. As Gentile believers in Jesus became numerous and followers of the Messiah split off as a sect of Judaism, 'Judaizer' had been used against various early sects of Jewish believers who practiced varying levels of Jewish traditions or ritual practices. Judaizer is not a scriptural term, and has a wide range of meanings.

GoyOfY'shua Wrote:

To Baptistic, Prowler, sugarman, Aad2, and other Jewish and gentile Christians who aren't Judaizers:

Does anyone else want to get Jans and other moderators to kick Ripley's, Faith, and others off the forum for discrimination against Christians who are denominationally Roman Catholic and Protestant, and who celebrate Christmas, Easter, and the Sabbath on Sunday?

I agree that the harsh realities of discrimnation by slanderously attacking someone else's view should be kicked off these boards. But open and passionate responses without hate, to one view or the other should not.

The 20th and 21st centuries have given great freedom to the conscience of presenting ones own religious beliefs. When the Sabbath vs. Sunday/Anyday debate enters thoughts of legistlating national law or perhaps even forum rules, listen to the last remarks of within this video clip:

Legistlating Worship

Historically both non believing Jews and Sabbath keeping Christians have met political "Christianity", being persecuted to death. Acts 7:60

Is the average man's concience so weak, that it requires the power of man's authority to intervene? Perhaps the Almighty requires help?

JFJ has a tough job in moderating these forums, but much appreciation and applauding should be given them Lone_ranger

in allowing the discussing of the controversal questions present in Christianity.

Quote:

Tell my Jewish friend, my Jewish family members who were saved, and Natan'el Kapner that; and you'll get a whole lot more than being spoken of as a Judaizer.

So? I would point them to the same scriptures you do me about freedom and self-righteousness.

I would appeal to the scriptures over commentary, like you do with the non-messianic Jews here.

We're on the same side Goy, whether you realize it or not.

It is not my intention to "Catholic-bash"... but just like that leopard that can't change it's spots, the RCC formal can't change it's history, and has yet to change it's stand on many other fundamental doctrines that you and I agree on: grace opposed to self-righteous works (participation in their own salvation), etc. Forget all the word-parsing, and explanations between "veneration" and "worship", etc...the nitty gritty is that many of their doctrines don't come from scripture, but from their version of "Oral Torahists/Pharisees", and are anti-biblical.

And I hate having to point that out. I really do.

Quote:

A Roman Catholic who is a Christian is better off than an unsaved professing "Messianic" Jewish or gentil person.

They are a Christian if they really get the gospel under/behind all the many works...if not, they are not saved, and no better off than anyone else who thinks they can earn salvation. I would say the same of any denomination.

Norbert, that "Legislating Worship" clip was great! Thank you!

cor517 Wrote:

Don't worry Ms. Jans. God has yet to show me how anybody could possibly Judaize a Messianic Jew.

Brit Chadashah could show you, and Brit Chadashah and Tanakh are Logos (John 1); so look at Acts 15, Romans 2 and 14, Galatians 1-5, Colossians 2:16, and Titus 1:14.

Ripley's Wrote:

Quote:

Tell my Jewish friend, my Jewish family members who were saved, and Natan'el Kapner that; and you'll get a whole lot more than being spoken of as a Judaizer.

So? I would point them to the same scriptures you do me about freedom and self-righteousness.

I would appeal to the scriptures over commentary, like you do with the non-messianic Jews here.

We're on the same side Goy, whether you realize it or not.

If we were on the same side, then you would leave Jewish Christians like me alone in regards to how Jewish I really am.

Quote:

It is not my intention to "Catholic-bash"... but just like that leopard that can't change it's spots, the RCC formal can't change it's history, and has yet to change it's stand on many other fundamental doctrines that you and I agree on: grace opposed to self-righteous works (participation in their own salvation), etc. Forget all the word-parsing, and explanations between "veneration" and "worship", etc...the nitty gritty is that many of their doctrines don't come from scripture, but from their version of "Oral Torahists/Pharisees", and are anti-biblical.

And I hate having to point that out. I really do.

My parents grew up Roman Catholic; my mom's whole side with few exceptions are Roman Catholic, and many are both professing and evidently Christians; and my Jewish-Polish great-great-granddad converted to Roman Catholicism, and my great-granddad's family since with few exceptions has been Roman Catholic. I'm knowledgable of Roman Catholicism personally; and I learned more about Roman Catholic practices at my Christian high school, so I know enough about Roman Catholicism to know that the Vatican has had issues.

Quote:

A Roman Catholic who is a Christian is better off than an unsaved professing "Messianic" Jewish or gentil person.

They are a Christian if they really get the gospel under/behind all the many works...if not, they are not saved, and no better off than anyone else who thinks they can earn salvation. I would say the same of any denomination.

So, Ripley's, what are you implying about yourself? One is sanctified even if unsaved through a sanctified spouse or parent (1 Corinthians 7), but the kind of santification that brings and comes as a result of salvation is not because of works, but because of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). How can you do good and be more sanctified as a Judaized gentile than a Jewish Christian who is "Romanized" or "gentilized" if you are both saved? (Romans 1-3, 14)