JFJ Forums

The book of Proverbs teaches that the faithful are the wounds of a friend, but decietfull are the kisses of an enemy.

Just because it seems like the Nazis are defeated doesn't mean they are.

I want the Jews to behave them selves in this world in a way that they thrive, not just survive.

Because of the sinful nature putting a holocaust museum on every corner might not be a way to do never again.

Think about it.  Liberal Jews don't realy have any thing in common except a sacred number, 6 million.  You can't touch it or they say you are a holocaust denier, a blashphemer against their religion created by Hitler.

You could smash the ten commandments, commit adultery, use God's name in vain, urinate on the sabath or even worship budah as long as you don't question the sacred number.

If you question the number of Germans killed in the war you are a scholar, not a denier.  Where is the logic of lumping scholars into the deniar camp.  Even Akmedenajan is just saying we need to know more about the holocaust before we put the number in stone.  Read what Akmadenajan really says.

ORthodox JEws aren't like this.  In fact, they went to Iran to study the holocaust in a more objective maner, one that doesn't smack of worship.

I am not saying this because I hate the Jews.  I want them to have a winning strategy for the new millenium, one that isn't assanine.

Chad,

What you are saying is the same stuff that most apocaliptic Messinianics say. You judge liberal Jews, support Traditional and Orthodox Jews, then you claim to speak for G-d about the Holocaust. Let G-d preserve his people, and keep your theories away from suppressing and destroying Judaism and its people. Instead of working from faulty or biased perspectives, please support the few "Jews" that follow Meshiach, have some respect our people and stop spousing antisemitic perspectives.

Wow,
Great partly...

Well Moses smashed the Torah, and he might have been quite angry about the enslavement in Egypt, the worshipping of the Golden Kalf etc. Human things seemed more important than just only smashing the Torah... just given by The Almighty.
Anyway The Almighty gave new ones... And He told us to remember in every generation the going out of Egypt...

So we keep on remembering all kind of not so winning strategies in different centuries. Maybe that is how HaShem wanted it?

in the Holocaust Jews where blamed for realy everything by the Germans. Being to close to French Enlightenment, being to poor East-European religious onces. Not allowed to carry the German Flag. But also not allowed to be disloyal by building pre-zion-training kamps. Being of another Race was one of them.
Because most modern-orthodox etc. American kind of Jews who are partly enlightent, and especially if you are not a religious Jew. The explaination of being a race etc becomes more important. Also in Israel in YadvaShem it was in the late 60's when YadvaShem slowly started to have more ears to the orthodox stories, instead of only zionist or non-religious points of view.
-according to a lot of zionists, Jews should have gone to the camps like sheep, because Jews are patriottic too. etc. so also a lot of internal conflicts in approach.

-Liberal Jews still have the claim of being a race and even by putting organs in Synagogue and keeping services on Sunday, they where still not German but different. So they also have the claim of being to different for others.

So the wounds are here in Israel still deep. I hear a lot of American Jews also still have a lot of blurred dogma's. Such As ''America was only against Germany'', ''we didn't had companies that helped the Germans'' or ''the war was not a religious war''. etc.
So the Holocaust-museums should give more openly info about all kind of side-effects of wars etc.

The 10's of Orthodox Jews who went to Iran to talk, are a certain politicall group allready anti-zionists and by that making other friends, so not objective at all, just from another side. the about 25.000 Iranian Jews might tell you how many Jews where allready killed in razzia's in Irak-Iran area in the 1920's and 30's
To be a Scholar you need a lot of sides of the story.
To worship the Holocaust, or make it an only way to identify yourself is not realy o.k. of course.

continuation.

Once an Israeli in a Yeshiva asked me... ''did also Dutch people died during the occupation''. Well I can say in Israel people might have learned to much only about themselves...

In Holland I also met Dutch women who where in Japanese camps, and because of that couldn't get babies anymore etc. The number of how many Dutch women where raped end poisened etc. is less important maybe than the impact that it had for the rest of their lives. with these Dutch(Indonesia) and Americans (Philipines) in camps, religion or race was not the issue. The Japanese used also Chinese people to freeze them in and do tests on people still alive, that the U.S.A. even wanted te keep written in documents form 1942, because after the war the U.S.A. could exchange patentrights for letting free of Japanes-camp docters as well as in Europe the other kind of camp-docters.
But Gypsies and Jews where anyway killed for the race, so you couldn't use any other excuse, there was no escape.

Holocaust-museums also should not let us not forget the many gypsies, the milion Jews killed in WW-I, the 1 Milion serbs etc. etc. And Holocaust Museums should not let us forget that Germany sponsored the Kroatians with wapons in 1990, plus the U.N. did choose to be against the Serbs. Same wars still are going on.

If churches, people and holocaust-museums where more open about history (and future) the world might create a winning strategy against the comming War. But I'm affraid that a lot of churches also don't understand half of their responsibility at this moment.

Meanwhile, holocaustism isn't a new sect. What about the Mo'avim who gave Yisra'el a hard time while Moshe was leading adom-Yisra'el to Canaan?  

Shalom Chad,  Your words tell me that I must have missed something, or cannot tune into your thought process, in this thread.  Could you, please, say a bit more so, maybe, I can understand?  Your thread sounds like you are telling Israel to quit whining, and get on with life, or something to that effect.

In Messiah, Shalom.   Arley

yetzirah~

It's not really the function of the church formal to teach history that is outside the Bible, but our schools and most certainly parents should teach our children the FULL history...or what we can know that has not been completely hidden or destroyed.

BUT, as a result of the Holocaust, "tolerance" has permeated our societies (internationally, via the UN, now). So much so that we can't denounce Jihadist Islam, or any worldview, because that's just too "intolerant/bigotted". (Like being peaceful citizens murdered for their faith is equal to being international terrorists killing for theirs....UGH!)

We are going to "tolerate" ourselves into oblivion, I'm afraid....but then it's all been spelled out for us in scripture. Gog and Magog.

My prayers for Jews everywhere in the world, and especially also Israel the Nation.

To Navy Blue-
First, I want to say that I am not perfect, and my critique that I give is comeing from a faliable human.

I think Yezeriah got what I said.

Think of it this way.  Many Jews are uncomfortable with the way that the holocaust has become the rallying point or one thing in common Jews have, or are uneasy that it isn't exacly that but something close.

I was just takeing this idea and putting a new spin on it focusing on the number 6 million and raiseing the question of why it seems to be the only thing held sacred among all Jews.

Reading my own posted tekst over, two corrections!!!

-according to a lot of zionists, Jews should NOT have gone to the camps like sheep, because Jews are patriottic too. etc. so also a lot of internal conflicts in approach. Explain further: for modern people where ashamed that Jews didn't fight back during the war...  even in Israel it was forbidden for a while in 1944-45 to write in newspapers about what was happening in Europe... Israeli's didn't want that Jews went back to Europe to help. (although some did in different armies.) The war for a freed Israel was important too those days... and this is also in Israel still a wound of 'maybe' guilt...

-The Japanese used also Chinese people to freeze them in alive and do tests on people still alive unit731, that the U.S.A. even wanted te keep this unit working, and not to bomb or free it written in documents form 1942, because after the war the U.S.A. could exchange patentrights for letting free Japanes-camp docters as well as in Europe the other kind of camp-docters, to get the patentrights on medicines from the camps.
The devide Bayer and other companies during the Neurenbergtrials, are nowadays again bought over by eachother as 1 company on the stockmarket too.
How the Marshallplan and wiedergutmachung changed the world and forced also Israel to sighn documents about patentrights and about not hunting Nazi's etc. made clear that the world is not about ethics, and left wounds also.

But Gypsies and Jews where anyway killed for the race, so you couldn't use any other excuse, there was no escape. I mean being killed for your race is something else than being killed for what you stand for. It dind't mather what kind of flag, religion or so you stood for. It was wrong to be yourself. And in that sence the Germans partly created this holocaust-sect thing you might mean.
Maybe Germany, the U.S.A. and every country should create museums too about what they did wrong in history, and open up different approaches about not to let it happen again. Maybe that is a better approach than holocaust museums.
Why on earth do the victoms have to create those museums.
Why on earth do the Americans, have american soil in Holland for their fallen soldiers. (because the U.N. says that every country can claim land where a lot of there citizens fell!!!!) So why on earth does Israel not have a peace of land in Auswitz? Why do we have to fight churches who put crosses in Auswitch, and put Polish organisations there who acted anti-semitically?

TO Yezeriah-
When you think about nation building, talking about where a nation has been where it is, where it is going, and you memorialize your past it seem that people with resources would want to memrorialize the good things.

That is why we as Americans have Memorial day, Labor day, Thanksgiving and not kill the indians day or surpress the negros day.

I imagine we could have it, but because of limited time and resources we emphasize the positive and have King day.

If there was an overcoming First Nations thing we could have a holiday for that.

How about Jim THorpe Day.

How about a holiday for a famous holocaust survivor who did something with his life?

This is not intended as sarcastic, off the top of my head I really don't know and I commend Yezeriah for knowing a ton on this subject.