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Question for practicing orthodox Jews.....

Can you please tell me some details regarding the Passover celebration.  Do you believe that it is just a mermorial celebration or that somehow by the mystery of God, the celebration is an entrance into the original Passover?

Another question....   As part of the Passover Seder Liturgy, do you currently, or was it a practice in the temple period, eat the lamb of the sacrifice?

And yet another question ....   Can you briefly explain why drinking the blood of the lamb of the sacrifice was strictly forbiden?

My intent is not to proselytize but instead explore the commonality between Catholicism and Judaism.

Shalom,

Bill

Ripley’s – you may never have heard of Loraine Boetner but his book “Roman Catholicism” has greatly influenced misperceptions of the Catholic faith.  He has a list of “catholic inventions”, most of which have been outright disproven as “inventions” and others which date centuries before Boetner’s claims.  Case in point is Chafer claiming that “Protestants hold that the RCC view of the Lord's Supper was defined and fully taught after 1100ad and not held by the early church fathers.”

This is the approximate time that the Catholic Church attempted to explain the mystery of the Real Presence in the Eucharist by using the word “transubstantiation”.  I’m awaiting Chafers explanation on how the RCC view of the Real Presence differs from the Early Church Fathers (ECF).  I suspect the best he is going to be able to do is raise arguments about transubstantiation ( the substance of the bread and wine is changed into the Lamb of God), versus consubstantiation (while still remaining bread and wine, the Lamb of God is still physically present).  I’ll be curious to see evidence of a “spiritual only” presence.

The Real Presence of the Eucharist is a biblical teaching –the whole of scripture, both N.T. and O.T. needs to be taken into account and not selected verses.  Jesus didn’t just say “do this in remembrance of me”, he also said:

(Mt 26:26 ff) Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (also Mk 14:22ff, Lk 22:17ff)
(cont …)

(… cont)
The Eucharist was prefigured by our Jewish brethren in the Passover celebration.  They were instructed to sacrifice a lamb, eat it’s flesh, and sprinkle the blood on their doorposts so that death would pass them over:  Ex 12:7f Then they shall take some of the blood, and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat them. They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Compare this with a quote from Cyprian of Carthage: "So too the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",

-"The Unity of the Catholic Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,

With this understanding of the Eucharist as the fulfillment of Passover, Jn 6 makes more sense.  The Jewish people were to celebrate Passover from death to life by eating the flesh of the Sacrificial Lamb.  They were scandalized by Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I’m fully aware that this discussion is going to turn into a debate on various interpretations of scripture.  This is the very reason I bring up the ECF.  Every writing I’ve seen deals with a real physical presence of The Passover Lamb in the Eucharist.  I’m curious to see if Chafer or anyone else will be able to provide reference to a “spiritual only” presence.  I don’t have specific books on my shelf but I do have references to a non-Catholic website that has the ECF writings.  You can read them for yourselves, in light of scripture of course.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

p.s. – Please note that I’m not trying to be divisive here.  I’m presenting what I believe to be true not only from scripture and from the ECF but from what I’ve experienced in celebration of Passover Seders and our Eucharistic celebrations.

I guess that's me.




We tell over the exodus from Egypt; we eat Matzo and Maror [bitter herbs] and drink 4 cups of wine, spaced out through the evening.




Mainly the former, but we are told that each one of us must try and imagine as if we ourselves had been freed from Egypt.




Only when the Temple was standing and the Passover sacrifice was brought.




The blood of any animal is forbidden to be drunk.

EXACTLY!

And were they "eating and drinking" Christ's body? Obviously not.

Pre-Sinai~
God blessed Noach and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will be upon every wild animal, every bird in the air, every creature populating the ground, and all the fish in the sea; they have been handed over to you. Every moving thing that lives will be food for you; just as I gave you green plants before, so now I give you everything - only flesh with its life, which is its blood, you are not to eat. Gen 9:4 CJB

Post-Sinai~
It is to be a permanent regulation through all your generations wherever you live that you will eat neither fat nor blood.'" Lev. 3:17 CJB

You are not to eat any kind of blood, whether from birds or animals, in any of your homes. Whoever eats any blood will be cut off from his people.'" Lev. 7:26, 27 CJB

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.' This is why I told the people of Isra'el, 'None of you is to eat blood, nor is any foreigner living with you to eat blood.' "When someone from the community of Isra'el or one of the foreigners living with you hunts and catches game, whether animal or bird that may be eaten, he is to pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature - its blood is its life. Therefore I said to the people of Isra'el, 'You are not to eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it will be cut off.' Lev. 17:11-14 CJB

Post-Resurrection/Ascention~
Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to [Gentile believers] abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. Acts 15:20 CJB

Seems like a universal command to me.

Indeed, the consumption of the blood of animals was forbidden.  As Ripley points out from scripture, the life of the creature is in its blood.

Yeshua, no ordinary “creature” but rather the Passover Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world – “"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.  As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. (Jn:651ff)

Scandalous!!!  “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”  How can this man be the Son of God – “Isn’t this Jesus whose Father and Mother we know?”  How can this bread of life and this cup of salvation be the Body and Blood of the Passover Lamb?  Isn’t this just bread and wine? How can “this is my body” be taken literally?

Jesus disciples (yes, even those who followed him):  “This is a hard saying: who can listen to it?”  And the Lamb of God lets them choose to walk away.
Jesus: “Do you wish also to walk away?”
His faithful disciples: “"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."  Bewildered by His teachings, they continue to trust, believe, and follow.

Your question was: "How 'Jewish' is this RCC teaching of literally eating the flesh of the Lamb and drinking His blood?"

I could stretch the eating of His body, because that has some basis...but the drinking of ANY blood is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN by God, not Jews.

So, to answer your question: not "Jewish/biblical" at all. They go to great lengths to remove *all blood* from meat. (Brine, cook well done, etc., according to the Jews on this site, that I have had this conversation with.)

And, as I asked you, were the Apostles, who were sitting there listening, eating, and drinking literally eating and drinking from His body? No, they weren't. He didn't say, "In the future when you partake of this remembrance meal, it will be my body/blood..." He simply said, "Take this bread, it *IS* (present tense) my body..."

So, is it possible/probable that He was telling them a SPIRITUAL TRUTH, rather than a literal one?

Maybe a side subject...
But I was told once that some catholics also use water and wine together...
Most Jews do during Kiddush (regulary on 1 cup, with passover you have 4 or a tradition of 5 cups but I guess no mixing with water) Also a little bit of water in the wine...
I don't know exactly where the custom comes from but also in Tenach is mention of drops of water, drops of wine or drops of blood.
I think that protestants don't have any water custom with wine. And some Jews also don't do it...
Just for information. Further research is neccesary

In the old times everybody was diluting the wine with water, because pure wine than was to strong and maybe bitter.