Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Do the Jews of Judaism really believe that a mere man could do this? Is this just symbolic to them? Or do they believe this is talking about no one?
To me, obviously, these things are descriptions of God, not man, and I don't see how you can logic it out that God does not have a Son from it. God "established all the ends of the earth," for one. It follows then that since that has an answer, and since we know the name of God, that God must have a Son who has a name that can be known, as well. And since the Shema says that there is only one God, that this Son must also be God.
Anybody know? Tovia Singer didn't respond to that verse in his book.
BTW, I can find the OT references for God ascending and descending, binding the waters in a garment, and establishing the ends of the earth. Does anyone know where the OT verse talking about gathering the winds in his fists can be found?
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Do the Jews of Judaism really believe that a mere man could do this? Is this just symbolic to them? Or do they believe this is talking about no one?
It's talking about Moses.
Yes, Rashi has put forth that this is a description of the accomplishments
of Moses.
Ascended and descended to/from heaven:
Exodus Chapter 24
15 And Moses went up into the mount, and the cloud covered the mount.
16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and the seventh day He called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
18 And Moses entered into the midst of the cloud, and went up into the mount; and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
Gathered the wind in his fists:
Exodus Chapter 10
13 And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all the night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.
Wrapped waters in a garment:
Exodus Chapter 14
16 And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand over the sea, and divide it; and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground.
27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
As far as "the son" goes, Rashi says this is not asking about the "son", but
about who he is descended from. It is an Hebrew idiom; and is about
identifying the person who is described in Prov 30:4. It's an idiomatic
was of identifying the credentials of the person who has carried out
these feats.
An alternative understanding is that this is a series of statements about
the nature of G-d
So, if it is speaking about a "son", who is the "son"?
The first is that this is not to be taken literally, but is asking if any
man had the powers described in the passage, then who is he?
If it is not G-d, then who is this special man who has such powers?
Who is his son, ie, what is the family lineage? Who are these people?
"son of G-d" also denotes a special relationship to Him, but does not
mean a physical son of G-d. Son of G-d can include Israel and Kings
David and Solomon.
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Do the Jews of Judaism really believe that a mere man could do this? Is this just symbolic to them? Or do they believe this is talking about no one?
It's talking about Moses.
Would Moses going up Sinai be how he ascended up into heaven and descended? Or is there something else that this refers to?
I'm assuming the wind and the water references would be to the crossing of the Red Sea. Is that a good assumption?
Why would it matter who Moses' son is, and which son? Why would that be an important question for Jews in reference? Is there something in the Oral Torah that makes this question relevant? I can only find two references to Gershom and one to Eliezer in the Tanakh, and neither is helpful in answering this question. If the Jews of Judaism feel this is Moses, there must be some importance to Moses' son. Or would the Jews of Judaism say that would just be my Christianity coloring the importance of the word? Why does the writer ask about Moses' son?
Thank you both for your answers. (Sheitl, you seem to have anticipated my questions before I asked them.)
Would Moses going up Sinai be how he ascended up into heaven and descended? Or is there something else that this refers to?
Yes, as Sheitel Queen explained.
She also correctly, IMHO, explained the other parts about which you have asked.
If the Jews of Judaism feel this is Moses, there must be some importance to Moses' son.
Unfortunately, Moses didn't get much
nachas [pleasure] from his children and grandchildren. Apart from the fact that he was way too busy being the leader of the People of Israel to give any time to his children, I believe one of his grandsons set up in business as a dealer in idols.
Thank you both for your answers. (Sheitl, you seem to have anticipated my questions before I asked them.)
women's intuition, dontchaknow....
An alternative understanding is that this is a series of statements about
the nature of G-d
So, if it is speaking about a "son", who is the "son"?
The first is that this is not to be taken literally, but is asking if any
man had the powers described in the passage, then who is he?
If it is not G-d, then who is this special man who has such powers?
Who is his son, ie, what is the family lineage? Who are these people?
"son of G-d" also denotes a special relationship to Him, but does not
mean a physical son of G-d. Son of G-d can include Israel and Kings
David and Solomon.
Ohhh that gave me a tingle up and down my spine!!!
************Hail, King Jesus!!!************
Glory!
Would Moses going up Sinai be how he ascended up into heaven and descended? Or is there something else that this refers to?
Indeed.
There are more connections between the Ladder in a dream of Yaakov where angels are decending and going up, and the mountain of Sinai.
But 1 of them is Gematria. Sinai in Hebrew letters is 130. Also Sulam (without the vowel waw, is possible) = 130
(Heaven is not most important, without a Sulam, Salem (Jeru-Salem) will come on earth. Than it might be more important how you see things and see His Name etc.)
Also interesting about that (130) what I found by Dr. Akiva G. Belk.:
We read in Parshas Bo, "And Hashem will pass through Mitzriam at the mid of night." Exodus 12:23
What was it like to be in Mitzriam at the mid of night when untold numbers were dying? What was it like to feel death everywhere? What was it like to ponder, how will the people of Mitzriam respond to such massive death? What will they do?
Holy reader, even though Hashem was moving mightily amidst B'nei Yisroel there in Mitzriam thousands of years ago, feelings of fear were extreme! Uneasiness was everywhere! We see this uneasiness in the Gematria 278. We see it in the words, "And Hashem Vi Aw Vahr {will pass through} Mitzriam at the mid of night." ... WHICH CREATES THE FEAR. That fear results from what is about to happen... Hashem passing through. However that fear is subdued for the households that have applied the proper principles.. for those who have observed the Torah.. for those who have obeyed Hashem's commands! WHY? Because Hashem's judgment of death will Pesach {Passover} instead of passing through. So Vi Aw Vahr creates fear and Pesach relieves fear.
When we contrast Vi Aw Vahr and Pesach we observe the following:
Vi Aw Vahr {pass through}
278 = Reish = 200 Bais = 2 Ayin = 70 Vav = 6
Pesach {Passover}
148 = Ches = 8 Samech = 60 Pey = 80
The difference between Vi Aw Vahr {Gematria 278} and Pesach {Gematria 148} is 130 {130 = 278 - 148} In other words the difference between Vi Aw Vahr and Pesach, the Gematria 130 is how one views things. How does one view the matters at hand? How does one view the Torah? How does one view the commands of Hashem? How does one view challenges?