wkirscher, that's fine....therefore, this will be my last post to this thread. However, I have already addressed that verse...
We are all born of water when we are born out of the womb...
We are not all born of the Spirit until we are reborn..
If you read that whole chapter in context of what it actually says, you will see that. Nicodemus asked Jesus how someone can be born again...how can one reenter a womb...Jesus response...you have to be born of water and spirit....(keep reading)...that which is born of the flesh is flesh (water birth...all of us), and that which is born of spirit is spirit!!.....keep reading (verse 15) that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Oh yea, but that's not good enough YOU HAVE TO GET BAPTIZED IN WATER....let's just throw faith away and revert back to deeds? Nah, not me..... thank you Jesus for everything you did for me it truly means something to me and I know that what you did for me saves me through my faith and your precious grace. I love you Jesus!!!
Ok, sorry...I have to add one more post. I left out a couple of things on the last one. Sugarman, glad we agree..sorry I misunderstood your first post. My last comment to wkirscher (which I won't be responding to anymore comments on this thread) is "Baptism in Scripture and the Early Church"....how much more early do you think you can get than the Bible??? The people that wrote the Old Testament were with Jesus... Do you want to go by the Bible, or the other people that you tend to believe? I know that there are many other people that are "early" that teach things contrary to what the actual Bible states, but me...I choose to believe the Bible and Jesus himself! You don't have to answer because I won't be responding anymore...I thought you had an issue that you were trying to resolve, and was simply trying to help, so sorry for disagreeing with what you were looking to hear.
Sorry.....I PROMISE last comment. LOL I just read the FULL verse you attempted to quote proclaiming that it is "the great commission". Let me tell you what it actually says, word for word...it is Matthew 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the word.Amen."
Well, when I read this I see that it is saying that as you TEACH of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, this baptizes them in the Holy Spirit when they believe....and this is what fits with the scriptures (how the Holy Spirit fell on people while preaching of the gospel was occuring,etc.).
Krisi,
You are presenting nothing that has not been stated before because it comes from Evangelical bible commentary. The “water” in “being born of water and spirit” being “amniotic fluid” is another tradition of man, twisting scripture to conform to a subset of post-reformation beliefs about baptism. Why read bible commentary from the 20th century when you can get it from the 1st and 2nd century?
Baptism is not a work. It is a means by which God confers grace. You can read Ezekiel 36:25ff, for example, to see it prophesied. This is confirmed over and over again by the early church writings that Evangelicals tend to ignore. This is precisely why it is part of the Great Commission.
“How much more early do you think you can get than the bible?”.
Depends on which scriptures you are talking about. The earliest of Christians did not have the N.T. scriptures. They were not complete until ~90 A.D., the full canon was not agreed upon until much later, they were not as well circulated as bibles are today, and roughly 95% of the population could not read. Jesus granted his Apostles the authority to teach and baptize and this was how the Gospel spread. The early church did not “exegete” the scriptures to “figure out baptism”. They professed, practiced, and passed on what the Apostles taught (which was learned directly from Rabbi Yeshua) THEN wrote the N.T. scriptures under the same authority and with the same guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is why extra biblical writings of the early church are so valuable – they provide a “bible commentary” to help understand what the early church believed and practiced. They are largely ignored by Evangelicals because they show the early church believed in regenerative baptism and in the true physical presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.
“Do you want to go by the Bible, or the other people that you tend to believe?”
The interpretation of baptism as regenerative is in the bible (Ez 36:25;Jn 3:5,22; Tit 3:5; Acts2:37-38; Acts22:16; 1Cor6:11; Rom6:4; 1Pt3:21;Hb 10:22). It is also prefigured in many, many ways in the O.T., and in the Jewish customs of circumcision and mikveh. It is a belief that is held by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestants. All of the early church writings confirm this view and none oppose it. I’ve challenged the readers of this forum to produce pre-reformation evidence to the contrary and have seen absolutely nothing, just more twisting of scripture.
ok, I obviously know how you believe; and you obviously know how I believe. So even though I said I was done on this thread, I will respond once again...not for you, but for others that may be reading this thread and needing an answer. So let me begin by addressing each individual passage you gave me:
Ezekiel 36:25 who does it say will sprinkle clean water upon you? It says "I"...who is I? Man or God??? Obviously, it is God...he is the one who does the sprinkling,giving of a new heart, and puts the Spirit within you...man cannot do this.
John 3:5: I already answered this (flesh is of flesh), John 3:22:Yes, this is obviously baptism in water (which I stated was an outward public display of your rebirth)..but I suggest one read all of John chapter 3 (espessially verses 15,16,18,33,34,36)
Titus 3:5 This verse shows its not by works (anything a man does/has to do physically is a work...including baptism by water) but according to his mercy (we are washed and given the Holy Ghost)/like I said no one can wash us but Jesus himself.
Acts 2:37-38
ricked in heart and asked what shall we do(don't we all do this when we believe? It's hard for us to believe there is nothing we have to do but have faith and believe to be saved...it's natural.) He says repent and be baptized and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. So the word here obviously depated is "baptized" water baptism/spirit baptism....Now you will see that it is Peter who says that they gladly RECEIVED his word were baptized and about 3,000 souls were saved that day. (also read verse 44...all that believed)..I've already proven that the baptism(of Spirit that Jesus provides through his grace) comes when you truly believe... continued
Acts 22:16: He says why wait? arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Also read Acts 2:21,Romans 10:13,Joel 2:32...that who calls on name of Lord (Jesus) shall be saved.
1Cor6:11:We were washed, sanctified,and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God...yes, I agree, Jesus did this, not man.
Romans6:4:We are buried with him by baptism into death:that like Christ was raised up from the dead by glory of the Father, even so we also should WALK in newness of life....keep reading. verse 11-12 tells us not to sin that ourselves are dead to sin...I've already said that our old body which was born with sin has to "die" and we have to let the Spirit guide us into the newness of life and that is a constant struggle throughout life that is why we continue praying for forgiveness...water baptism does not do this..it's symbolic.
1Peter3:21:I say read 3:20 first that the 8 souls in Noahs days were saved by water. Then 21 says the LIKE figure even baptism saves us now (not the putting away of the filth of flesh...(like water does), but the answer of a good conscience towards God...(that God provides through baptism of the Spirit), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Hebrew10:22:Let us draw near with true heart in full assurance of FAITH, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil consience,and our bodies washed with pure water.23:Hold fast profession of our FAITH.38:just live by FAITH....so I ask how do we hae our hearts sprinkled by man? We don't, we can't...so how is our body washed with pure water? I'd say agian by God himself who shed the blood and water for us...not something man can do.
Now my point in all of this? I know you don't care for my explanations, but like I said I didn't do this for you. So, now that I have answered all of the above, I'll have you answer a few questions.
continued...
1. Why does Mark 16:16 not address those that believe and are not baptized? Maybe because it is automatic???
2. Why was Paul glad he didn't baptize if it was so essential? Why did he say he was not sent to baptize but to preach? Why didn't Jesus baptize anyone with water?
3. How was the theif on the cross saved without water baptism if it was necessary? Through faith??
4. What purpose did Jesus suffering, death, resurrection serve if we still have to do a work of man?
5. How do you explain the MANY passage that say that he who belives shall have everlasting life?
6. How can you explain that the one thing Phillip says hinders someone from being baptized in water is believing with all your heart? A newborn can't believe with all his heart so doesn't that hinder that child? Therefore, does this mean all children go to hell who aren't water baptized?
7. I beg you (anyone who seeks the truth) to read Acts chapter 10. (especially verses 34-48. (especially verse 43...that whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins, 44...while Peter SPAKE these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them WHICH HEARD THE WORD.They heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.Then what does Peter say? Can any man forbid water (that these shouldn't be baptized.....WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE???)...WAIT..WHAT? They recieved the Holy Ghost before being water baptized??? Acts 11:14-19 As he was speaking the Holy Ghost fell upon the people and then he remembered the word of the Lord..(that John indeed baptized WITH WATER, but you shall be BAPTIZED with the HOLY GHOST)...Forasmuch then as God gave them the LIKE gift (remember that word from 1Peter3:21?) as he did unto us,who BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? Acts 15:7-9,11 How much more simple can it get? It says that the Gentiles that heard believed and God knowing their hearts gave them the Holy Ghost and purifyed their hearts BY FAITH. That by GRACE of Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved. So, I say how did these people receive the Holy Ghost before being baptized by water? Who are you to withstand God?
Sorry I broke my promise, please forgive me...I feel that it is important to God for me to stand with my beliefs and share with others who may be contemplating this issue right now. I am not at all condeming being baptized in water, I just do not believe that it is what saves you. If I didn't respond to your post, then I would not be standing up to the Word of God, so I had no choice. Now I say to you, if you can answer my questions, then we will have a good debate.
WK you do not even understand solo-scripture.
it means everything is subject to scripture to prove it self not that it nuffly all tradition but it needs to be back up with scripture.
as for The church fathers you seem to rely on them more then on The greek text.
if you want i can made a new thread and we can debate on The acual meaning of words into The greek text to see if it need for salvation or Not.
but I have a question i ask but you did not answer
John 3;5 jesus is talking to someone under The Law The NT has not came yet so why would jesus tell the person in this verse you have to be baptism?
Wk Can you please show one one church father saying that may knew the 12 John said to me to paul said to me/ etc..... or they they even have there own view on what they were taught?
You seem to hang on The church fathers to make something true while I hang on the greek text and how words are used to prove something is true or not.
If you want like I said we can start a debate about The text you can quote a verse give why you believe it says this and thatetc.... you can try to use The greek text to back you up etc.... so what you saY? you wanna play?