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Krisi – every single one of your “proof texts” has been discussed in depth in other threads.

Your understanding of baptism is tainted by Evangelical Protestant man made tradition.  This tradition is particularly appealing in America (pretty much the only place in the world you find Evangelical Protestantism in appreciable numbers) because we like things instantaneous and guaranteed.  Scripture describes salvations as a process and goal (Phil 2:12, 1Pt 1:9, Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:35, Acts 15:11, Rm 5:9, Rm 13:11, 1Cor 3:15) yet Evangelical Protestants insist it is instantaneous and permanent.

In such a man made tradition, where salvation is considered immediate, everything in scripture becomes an either/or rather than a both/and.  It surprises me that in this forum, the “Jewishness” of viewing things as both/and is not more readily embraced.  The Protestant battle cry of “Faith Alone” is nowhere in scripture.  The only verse where we see these two words together says very specifically that we are NOT saved by “Faith Alone” (Jm 2:24), yet protestants, even while claiming to be true to scripture, insist that this is true.  If salvation is instantaneous and permanent (a man-made tradition), then it must be by faith alone that we are saved yet scripture very specifically tells us this is not true. This either/or mentality makes it impossible for Protestants to reconcile scripture and thus they continually divide.

I’m not particularly interested in playing scripture volleyball with regards to baptism.  This has been done in other threads.  The Holy Spirit apparently guides Evangelical Protestants and Baptists to believe one thing and the rest of Christianity to believe another.  What I’m more interested in is what the Apostles handed down to the earliest of believers.  What was being professed and practiced in the early church?  

Can you offer an explanation as to why there is not a single pre-reformation writing that describes baptism as “symbolic” as Baptists (ironically) and Evangelicals profess?  Is it possible that their interpretation of scripture is wrong?  If the numerous early church writings that describe baptism as regenerative were incorrect, can you offer an explanation as to why there are no writings that oppose this teaching?  Do the majority of Christians who still hold to what the early church believed have it all wrong?

Protestants dont cite Matt 28:19 for spirit baptism. Totally dishonest with your statements on Protestants on that one. How does water baptism logically rule out the existance of a spirit baptism as well ? What Protestant books have you read on the subject of Baptism of the Holy Spirit by Protestants ? The reason why I asked that is you made a broad brush statement.




Scripture no where teaches that ordinances  impart eternal life is neither the OT or the NT. Acts 15:1-11 rejects the position of the Church of Rome. Likewise Gen. 15:6 and Romans 3 to 5 supports the position of justification before God by grace through faith only in Jesus Christ. Ordiances in the OT and NT are only signs and seals of a Covenant relationship with God. Ordiances are not essential to salvation.

You were wrong to make that statement towards that person and is very unfair. If we follow what your saying it can be said your understanding of baptism is likewise tainted by the Church of Rome which likewise  can be called " man made traditions " . Statments like that goes both ways. Remember the RCC claims it's doctrines on Scripture and the use of Tradition. So your own accusation applies to the very position of the RCC.




Your statements are clouded by misrepresentation. Protestants teach that salvation is threefold. They teach we are presently saved from the penality of sin. We are being saved from the power of sin. And that we will be saved from the presense of sin. I do agree it is instantaneous and permanent. But you or other Roman Catholics never deal with the actual biblical arguments for it or interact with specific exegesis of the Scriptures which supports this. We wont ever see a Roman Catholic interact with any exegetical treatments on the Phil 2:12, 1Pt 1:9, Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:35, Acts 15:11, Rm 5:9, Rm 13:11, 1Cor 3:15 for their views on it. You did not make an honest argument at all .




Statements such as that shows me that you have no idea on what the Reformation concept of Justification by God's grace through faith only in Jesus Christ teaches at all. Nor are you aware of it's detailed exegetical arguments for it. Nor of it's teaching on the relationship between faith and works. By the way, you also ignore Protestants interpretation of James 2. This again shows a level of dishonesty on your part. You should be ashamed of yourself for presenting a false dilemma  to that person.

Has the Bishop of Rome proclaimed and defined statements of Jesus Christ and the Apostles that are not recorded in Scripture ? If we want to know what was passed down all we have the the written record of their teachings as recorded in the New Testament. All claims of Apostolic teaching must be dealt with directly from Scriptures alone as that is the only infallible written record of their teachings. Remember this the early church fathers are not the Apostles. And often taught truth mixed in with error. And were fallible in their teachings. Scripture is where we go to rather than this person taught this and that person taught that. Otherwise you start arguing in a circle over who taught what. The early church fathers were neither Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox or Protestant in doctrine. Each can cite them for some things. But no exclusive claims can be made by anyone.

I'm sure there is early explanations, but for me the Scripture is ALL  I need...I don't look elsewhere to "verify" scripture...I believe that is all we need like it says it is. Paul blantently says he was glad he didn't baptize many...why would he say this if it was necessary??? He came to PREACH. You are right that man cannot give the Holy Spirit...only God himself can. How is the Holy Spirit given? By preaching the gospel, so those can hear, believe, and repent...proved by them preaching the word and the Holy Spirit dwelling on them and them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.... Also, yes, we are commanded to go and "baptize" in the names of Trinity....by PREACHING!!! Think about it, I could go and "water baptize" people and proclaim...you are saved, but do they really believe? I don't know and could never know...only God knows their hearts so he is the only one who can judge them and give the Holy Spirit. Man can't tell another man they are saved...only God knows that by their heart. So, my main question to you is (since we know the Holy Ghost was given before water baptism by scripture itself...unless you profess that this scripture is wrong) does the Holy Spirit save you or not?

The Thing is WK if you read the The NT a alot of times they waiting for someone to confess their faith in jesus then baptism.


acts 10 the people heard and they believe they were saved.

the apsotles said now that they have the HG just like How we receive it right?

can we forbid them water baptism?


matt 28:19 is command for Obedience which any true christian who have true confession will do.

As far as instantaneous, NO, it takes time to build your faith, and it's a life long process...continually getting closer and closer to God as you learn. But faith is just that faith....
Faith in God though, not man. Permanent...not necessarily, some people get off track and don't let God lead their life and therefore, backslide...but this normally doesn't happen if one truly believed in the first place. HOWEVER, YOU SEEM TO BE TELLING ME THAT IT IS INSTANTANEOUS AND PERMANENT....by saying baptized by water, and then...You are saved, congratulations!!! I don't know your heart at all, but you've been saved, INSTANTLY, once risen out of the water PERMANENTLY...  seriously, you put your foot in your mouth.

Gee, what does THE WORD say about all this?

Col 3:17
And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

The apostils knew what the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and thus they baptized this way in the Book of Acts…over and over again..

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.


Acts 8:16
For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

hmmm,
Is water baptism "in Jesus' name" Part of being born again…?

John 3:5
3 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:1-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col 2:11-12
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Matthew 16:6 "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees...12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Luke 12:1....Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.....8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.

Is your doctrine of Pharisees or Sadducees???

So tell me how was it that the people received the Holy Ghost who were not yet baptized in water? Does the Holy Ghost save you??