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Wait a minute...  Are you saying that all of the Ante-Nicene Fathers who wrote about baptism were Roman Catholic?  And for the record …  it is not only the Roman Catholic Church that teaches baptism is regenerative.  ALL of the ECFs who wrote about baptism taught this as do Eastern Orthodox and many, many Protestant denominations.


Feel free to reject what the 1st 1500 years of Christianity believed and most still believe to this day in favor of your interpretation (and then re-read 2 Pet 3:16).



Be honest.  I’ve seen you use ECF writings to help bolster some of your beliefs.  You reject the ECFs regarding baptism because they oppose your view.

prophet The Trinity came from scripture Not the church fathers.


You seem to be in denial the very apostolic fathers who knew the apostles all taught trinity.

your combat is they were Gnostic but from reading what they confess as their beliefs, Their beliefs go against Gnostic.

Too bad you refuse to read it and simply obey it.

"Obedience" to basic cripture and Spiritual TRUTH."
That is what this topic is truly about, People refusing to simply read and obey!

All I here you folks saying is
"Anything but Obedience Acts 2:38... Give me anything but THAT... Give me any excuse and doctrin to remain in disobedience, what so ever..."

How Sad...  

And how empty these "Historic Church" and "gramatic context" arguments will sound when you stand before a weeping Jesus, face to face...

Have I been dishonest?

I agree with anyone, past or present, whose doctrines are in line with the bible, on those areas where they align with the bible. Where they don't, I don't. Not because MY opinion matters, but because God's does.

The "vehicle" of regeneration (born again, new creation) is the Holy Spirit, THE Living Water, not baptism. WE don't conrol/direct the Wind, we respond to it.

Let me ask you this, wk: When you uphold Tradition, especially lending credence to Oral Tradition, why should ANY JEW come to Messiah?

Since according to that Tradition, Yeshua is at BEST a mislead Jew, and at worse straight from the Adversary to mislead weak/uneducated Jews.

What would you tell them? Why should they regard YOUR Tradition over theirs?

wk~



Yeah, like the false teaching that baptism is the means of regeneration. Or a new sign of the New Covenant. It simply IS NOT.

"Catholic Concerns"...I did the search as you asked and found nothing that suggests she is a fabrication. However, I only posted that page because it contains the actual Bible references. It was easier to just quote and link it than to write out my own. So, forget "HER" and answer WHY IT IS *NOT* RECORDED IN SCRIPTURE! Or any quotes from early church fathers that came from Peter, or reference any conversations or practices that they shared with him. Nothing that I find from the writings that I have read that quote anything other than his writings found in scripture. NONE.

Yes, wk, I am going to the very foundation. That's the basis of your claim to Truth outside of/in addition to God's word. So, PROVE IT. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Present your case.

Furthermore, wk,

The Pillars in Acts 15, Jerusalem Council...they appealed to written scripture too, as I have previously pointed out. vv 15-18. In verse 19 James says, "THEREFORE, my opinion is..." not "In addition, my opinion is..."

These Pillars recognized that God's Word was the Authority.

Paul commended those who searched the scriptures to see if what HE was saying was TRUE...Tanakh, not any New Testament writings. He did not appeal to any Sacred Authority. "Well, don't bother looking in Tanakh, I have the Holy Spirit, not only that, but I am an Apostle."

Not at ALL!

Sorry, but sola scruptura is all over the Bible. Old and New Testaments, just as the Trinity is. Just because one denomination tried to repress it, and control the sheep with that repression for 1000 years, doesn't make it untrue.

Obedience" to basic cripture and Spiritual TRUTH."
That is what this topic is truly about, People refusing to simply read and obey!


Obedience comes from after being saved a sinner who is dead in the spirit can not do anything to please God.


Again Steadfast it sad that you need to make your own theology base on verses.

I can just see Jesus saying why did you not take what I said and How I said it and what I meant when I said it?



All I here you folks saying is
"Anything but Obedience Acts 2:38... Give me anything but THAT... Give me any excuse and doctrin to remain in disobedience, what so ever..."

How Sad...  Cry

And how empty these "Historic Church" and "gramatic context" arguments will sound when you stand before a weeping Jesus, face to face...


I would Think otherwise that jesus would be happy that I kept His word in context and how it being used in that way then  to take his words and try to make a new theology by twisting the very words until they are out of context and do not fit context grammar.


steadfast jesus said in the last days wolves will come in sheep clothing.


you want to know how maybe the elect could be deceive?

because even satan can quote scripture and be a angel of light pretending to what he is saying is biblical or true.

that The main way satan will try to get to the elect is through God word and twisting it.


all I got to say is I'm not the one in danger in twisting God word to fit what I want it to say.


you can read this site that explains my view


http://www.learnthebible.org/acts-238.html

Steadfast~



No, it's not about that at all. Every single one of us here agrees that baptism is VERY IMPORTANT. A matter of obedience. I was baptized, and my son was baptized at the age of 6, when we were sure that he understood who Jesus was, and what he (my son) was "saying/showing/declaring/displaying" when being baptized.

*I* think it so important that I would NOT ALLOW my son to be baptized until he understood that he was identifying himself with Christ, and what that means (albeit for a kid). Now I am being told that we are keeping little ones from him for not sprinkling them as newborns when they don't know squat!  

No one is saying baptism is irrelevant. If someone wanders on this forum and proclaims that we SHOULDN'T get baptized, you'd see me arguing passionately against that view.

The difference of opinion is that IT causes regeneration. To you and Prophet, salvation.

Every single ceremony on earth is a shadow of the Reality. We get baptized because we already have been baptized by the True Living Water which is the Holy Spirit.

Now wk feels that we are minimizing it..."only symbolic"...well, the Bible says that the entire Temple system, and ALL it entails, which is all about our salvation was "only symbolic/merely a shadow" does that make it "insignificant"? NO!

wk,

I searched some more and found this site Catholic Concerns which has her initial book, and MANY more articles.

She seems to me to be a real person. Her testimony is that she was a Catholic nun. And she hardly can be compared to Jack Chick when you read things like this: For the Record
or the letter in the book "To Catholics"...it's on the same link I already provided. At the end. She seems to have real love and respect for Catholics...AS DO I!

Oh, well!! I wrote her at the email addy given on the site, MaryAnnCollins@juno.com and guess what? She already responded! Just NOW got her email response, like 5 mins after I wrote her!! If that doesn't convince you, perhaps you could write her yourself.

Me: "Are you a real person or a fabrication?


Me: Comparing you to Jack Chick?



She suggested I give you this link also: Just for Catholics, "Test All Things" by Joe Mizzi, is available free on that website.