JFJ Forums - Baptism in Scripture and The Early Church

wk~

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Sola Scriptura …. What does it lead to? Division.

It only leads to division when people want to set themselves above God's word and take one, two, or three verses and interpret them outside the FULL COUNSEL of God (His WHOLE word) and attempt to force their anti-grace doctrines on the rest of us.

But the gospel remains: For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed." CJB

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. KJV

No "yeah, but..." Just that.

Scripture plucking (pitting one or two verses against the entire word of God, and in some cases even going far beyond what the verses ACTUALLY SAY):

Oneness:
One (singular) God, no Trinity
Tongues being THE ONLY/PREIMMENENT sign of the Holy Spirit/salvation (everyone must speak in tongues)
Baptism regenerates
Womens' hair

RCC:
Mariology
Beatification/Saints
Papacy
Sacraments bring God's grace (Baptism, Eucharist/Communion, Marriage, Last Rites, etc)

On top of this, insisting that there be no diversity in practice, when there was diversity right from the beginning of gentiles coming into the Body. Right from the get go, Acts 15- DIFFERENT PRACTICE: ONE FAITH/ONE BODY.

wkirscher Wrote:

Sola Scriptura ….  What does it lead to?  Division.

Since we can’t seem to come to an agreement here based on scripture alone, how about if we try another approach…

Let’s look historically at what was handed down by the Apostles based on what was being practiced in the early church.  How did the early church interpret scripture? Let’s start with writings prior to the 300s since after this time, many believe the Church was “paganized” by Constantine.

- For all those who believe baptism is symbolic and not regenerative, please provide evidence
- For those who believe baptism is regenerative and not just symbolic, do the same
- Likewise, provide evidence either for or against infant baptism
- Oh and also provide evidence to show that the early church believed baptism was a “work” and not an instrument of God’s grace

After that, we can look at the writings prior to 1000 since the Bride of Christ was fairly well united until the Great Schism of 1054.

Next, we can look at the writings prior to 1500 and see what the Eastern Orthodox Church came to believe once they escaped the clutches of Romanism.

Finally, let’s look at the post-Reformation writings.  Feel free to choose writings from the Church of England, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Presbyterians, Disciples of Christ, Churches of Christ, Anabaptists, Baptists, Congregationalist, Menonites, Quakers, Methodists, Reformed Church of America, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of the Brethren, Episcopalian, Unitarian Churches, “Bible Only” Churches, “Non-Denominational” churches, “prosperity” churches,  ….

The following link should prove useful:  www.earlychristianwritings.com

Ooooh yes, goody goody,
Let's try to find TRUTH by abandoning The Scripture and fallowing after the Traditions of men.... Lol

There it is AGAIN, "Anything but Act 2:38!"

Point of clarification of my perspective:

Oneness is not a Christian denomination...it is completely outside of the Body. No savior, no gospel...LOST.

Roman Catholicism is part of the Body, but has aberrant teachings.

Prophet~

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Actually lady it is the water that remits the sins and the infilling of the Holy Ghost which renews the mind because until then you don't have the mind of Christ.

Once again, if this is true, then you and Steadfast get to nabbing people off the street and baptizing them in your magic water without first preaching the gospel, and see if they get the mind of Christ.

All of this from Romans 10 KJV:

vv 9-11- That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

v 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

v 17- So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Oh, wow, more scriptures that say nothing of the prerequisite of being baptized!

The ONE "thing" that is consistent in ALL the scriptures (OT and NT) is our heart/faith. One can confess with their mouth, one can get baptized, one can get circumcized, but WITHOUT FAITH IN MESSIAH, it is a NOTHING/MEANINGLESS ACT OF FLESH.

It is faith ALONE that gives meaning to *all* the things we do. How do we "get faith"? Spirit to spirit. Our flesh (should) follow the Spirit who leads us to good works: that is obedience.

WE DO NOT DIRECT THE WIND WITH OUR FLESH, THE WIND DIRECTS OUR FLESH AFTER WE ARE BORN AGAIN OF THAT WIND. John 3:8, Jesus' words.

Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above!

Once again, cart/horse.

You guys are so carnally focused on the "water" (physical things) that you completely MISS His point! We don't rebirth ourselves or others. Nicodemus asked, "How can this happen?" Did Jesus answer, "Well, first get baptized." ?? No, He didn't. v 14- Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life.

Peter: Repent (first) and be baptized (second)...nowhere will you find baptism alone, or even listed FIRST. NOWHERE. The Good News is preached, those who TRUST are baptized; those who don't, walk away...no one chases them down and tackles them to be baptized. Baptism is the first step in discipling (a life of obedience), it is not salvation.

If Paul were here today I place full faith that he would say: On the contrary, the real Christian is one inwardly; and true baptism is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God. cf: Rom 2:29

Ripley's Wrote:

Wow!
See, what happens to those who try to tell religious folks to actually obey the scripture they claim to fallow?

BTW Ripley, The enemy is the accuser of the bretheren.
You really should resist trying to emmulate him. Frown

You better put that measuring rod down, lest it fall on you, first... Redface

Steadfast~

You aren't my brethren, you have no savior, you have no gospel.

Sorry, I really LOVE your personality, I mean that...but you don't know Jesus.

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You better put that measuring rod down, lest it fall on you, first

You think I say these these things off the cuff? You think I take it lightly? You think I don't properly FEAR God?
Here's the measuring rod I am using on you, I stand ready to be measured by it:

1) Your Jesus is a mere man, not God With Us, not Eternal YHWH Salvation/the Son pre- AND post-incarnate. Therefore, you have a different Jesus. You may look like us, but not really up close. And you may talk like us, but not really because to you "apples" means "oranges". You may be filled with a spirit, but that spirit is not the Holy Spirit, because it "confirms" to you this false gospel and non-savior. So, in the end, you are wolves in sheeps clothing. Like so many other anti-Christ cults who blaspheme His name: Jehovah's Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, The Church of God...all blasphemers.

2) God refutes your carnal works-based non-gospel:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2: 8-13 KJV

For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God's gift. You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. For we are of God's making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do. Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth - called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised - at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra'el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God's promise. You were in this world without hope and without God. But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah's blood. Eph 2:8-13 CJB
-emphasis mine-

So you are trying to call the the biblical command to be baptised in Jesus' name, a work?

am I right?

Ripley's Wrote:

Steadfast~

You aren't my brethren, you have no savior, you have no gospel.

I love you too Ripley!
Never the less, I sure am Glad you are not Jesus... Lol

Because if you are right, the apostils who preached and obeyed Acts 2:38 themselves are all toast, right along with me...

No matter how you try Ripley, you simply cannot be my Judge.
That's the lover of my soul's job... I feel confident that Jesus' Blood on calvery was good enough to ransom even me. And I feel confident and filled wiuth joy that my judge is Jesus...

Why, that is better then having my best friend as the policeman, who pulls me over for forgetting to signal!

Wooo hooo!
I can't wait to kiss Yeshuah', MY MESSIAH'S, furry face!

If that is not the Gosple to you, then maybe it is not I who is "with out" the gosple. Something to consider next time you are in your prayer closit.

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