JFJ Forums - Baptism in Scripture and The Early Church

Steadfast asked:

Quote:

So you are trying to call the the biblical command to be baptised in Jesus' name, a work?

Yes, just like the 613 that were given to Israel to follow. It is a command, we should do it, IN RESPONSE TO BEING (RE)CREATED IN CHRIST UNTO GOOD WORKS. It should be the very FIRST thing we set out to do in our life of obedience that we were formerly enemies of.

Don't confuse obedience with salvation. THAT is what I am saying, because THAT is what the scriptures say.

How would anyone WANT to be obedient without FIRST knowing they need to be? Why would anyone follow the commands of Jesus, if they don't FIRST come to TRUST and REGARD Him as YHWH Salvation? And how do we come to trust, regard, and submit? The Holy Spirit re-births/recreates us (John 3:6-8)...we confess that Jesus Christ is LORD at THAT moment. We repent at THAT moment. We are saved at THAT moment. Not almost saved, or kinda saved, or in some kind of "spiritual limbo-land" of half-saved until we are baptized, but 100% saved and secure.

At that point of rebirth, the unseen circumcision of our hearts, we are His and nothing can snatch us our of His hand...not even not being baptized.

Prophet~

Quote:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I am quite ready to stand before the Triune God of the Universe, covered by the blood of YHWH Salvation.

We are absolutely called to be fruit inspectors, and WARNERS: your fruit is bad/anti-Christ, therefore so is your tree. The warning is to you, first, and anyone who might be mislead by you, second.

Although you can attempt to obscure the quotes of Jesus, and recorded events that clearly display the Triune YHWH, one that you cannot answer is in Rev 4 and 5 where the One on the throne gives the scroll/book to the Lamb.

Most clearly two different persons. Satan? Why are all in heaven worshipping Him? Calling Him "Creator"? Peter, or another Apostle? Same questions. Is everyone in heaven deceived? Mistaken? The elders and tens upon tens of thousands of angels? Or is it possibly YOU that is without understanding? Obviously, I stand with the clarity of scripture over your perversion of it.

End of conversation.

If baptism is something we do towards God, and is thus called, by you guys, a "work" not needed for salvation.

Then your reasoning dictates
that our First Repentance is something we do towards God, and thus, is also a "Work" not needed for salvation.

Is accepting Jesus "A work" and therefore not needed for salvation?
Is it not something we must do to be saved?

sugarman Wrote:

Baptism is a command for obedience not salvation.
as for acts 2:38 you total skip over The Historical context of that verse.

Then, why have you refused to obey?
Why have you denied Yeshuah's name in Baptism?

Why do you skip over The litteral context of Acts 2:38???

And what excuse makes your publically proclaimed disobedience to Acts 2:38 a good thing??

Ripley's Wrote:

Prophet~

Quote:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

1) I am quite ready to stand before the Triune God of the Universe, covered by the blood of YHWH Salvation.

Although you can attempt to obscure the quotes of Jesus, and recorded events that clearly display the Triune YHWH, one that you cannot answer is in Rev 4 and 5 where the One on the throne gives the scroll/book to the Lamb.

2}Most clearly two different persons. Satan? Why are all in heaven worshipping Him? Calling Him "Creator"? Peter, or another Apostle? Same questions. Is everyone in heaven deceived? Mistaken? The elders and tens upon tens of thousands of angels? Or is it possibly YOU that is without understanding? Obviously, I stand with the clarity of scripture over your perversion of it.

End of conversation.

To number 1....Good for you...since there is no such God...you may have to wait a very long time

To number 2...evry one can misunderstand something(oops trinitarians like you of course are perfect and make no errors in interpretation...that's a laugh)

The One on the Throne is not a person...the One on the Throne is the invisible of the visible....Yeshua the invisible God handing the scroll to His visible Image Yeshua.
There is only Yeshua the man in whom Yeshua the Holy Ghost/Spirit/Father dwells. As for obscuring anything that is a falsehood...I give the scripture verbatim which is something you guys are lacking....The only ones perverting scripture are the ones that imply that God is a liar by saying Jesus the Man existed prior to His creation when God Himself says otherwise..you know where He says "There is NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME" kinda blows your theory out of the water and you still have NEVER given that scripture that seem SO ELUSIVE you know where God EVER SAYS HE IS THREE ANYTHING let alone persons.

Steadfast~

Quote:

Is accepting Jesus "A work" and therefore not needed for salvation?
Is it not something we must do to be saved?

How are we saved? God says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10 KJV

For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God's gift. You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. For we are of God's making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do. CJB

Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God. Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself. For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them. The Bible in Basic English

You can't pit, or prefer, one scripture over another. We are supposed to RECONCILE scriptures. Meaning, "how do they fit TOGETHER?" In the verses above, HE SAYS that faith is NOT A WORK, BUT A GIFT.

Like I said before, dozens of scriptures (OT and NT) that speak of FAITH/HEART/ATTITUDE ALONE, and a very few that SEEM to say works...does God contradict? Does He repeat those things that are important for us to remember? Where does HE place "salvation/righteousness"? Faith or works? His blood or our water?

Ancient marriage: The groom would ask the father of the bride for her hand. No one asked her. And upon that agreement made between the two men, the couple was considered married. It was an unbreakable contract. DONE. FINITO. Already "one". (Mary and Joseph, for example- Joseph had it in his heart to divorce her quietly, remember? They did not consumate physically until sometime after Jesus was born, yet ALREADY "man and wife", echad.)

The Father made the agreement/contract with the Groom (two parties/persons, btw, not one)....no one asked US/the Bride. We are His/saved/"married"/joined with Him at the point in which we have faith (God's work, not ours), via the Spirit (back to John 3). Think of baptism as physical consumation.

Prophet~

Quote:

The One on the Throne is not a person...the One on the Throne is the invisible of the visible....Yeshua the invisible God handing the scroll to His visible Image Yeshua.

Thank you for once again displaying and explaining your two-Jesus theology.

You decievers call yourselves "Oneness", but fail to tell everyone that you, in fact, have two Jesuses.

Steadfast Wrote:

sugarman Wrote:

Baptism is a command for obedience not salvation.
as for acts 2:38 you total skip over The Historical context of that verse.

Then, why have you refused to obey?

so quick to judge I was baptism after my confession in a lake

Why do you skip over The litteral context of Acts 2:38???

I do not skip over it. Your the one who skips over The context and its Historical position in time.

And what excuse makes your publically proclaimed disobedience to Acts 2:38 a good thing??

Disobedience? First you need to learn what baptism acts 2:38 IS

As for General baptism matt 28:19 etc... I never taught disobedience. I ALWAYS taught one should be baptism after confession due it a command for OBEDIENCE.

WK you need to note one thing The church fathers were not in agreement with everything.

For baptism I given you a clear link that show how they change The order of It which I do not know If you read It.

They add extra rules for one to be baptism.

The Link is so where on this thread I will go through it to find it when I got time

Ripley's Wrote:

Steadfast~

Quote:

Is accepting Jesus "A work" and therefore not needed for salvation?
Is it not something we must do to be saved?

How are we saved? God says:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10 KJV[/url]

For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God's gift. You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. For we are of God's making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do. Ephesians

[color=blue]Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God. Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself. For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them.

You can't pit, or prefer, one scripture over another. We are supposed to RECONCILE scriptures. Meaning, "how do they fit TOGETHER?" In the verses above, HE SAYS that faith is NOT A WORK, BUT A GIFT.

Like I said before, dozens of scriptures (OT and NT) that speak of FAITH/HEART/ATTITUDE ALONE, and a very few that SEEM to say works...does God contradict? Does He repeat those things that are important for us to remember? Where does HE place "salvation/righteousness"? Faith or works? His blood or our water?

Ancient marriage: The groom would ask the father of the bride for her hand. No one asked her. And upon that agreement made between the two men, the couple was considered married. It was an unbreakable contract. DONE. FINITO. Already "one". (Mary and Joseph, for example- Joseph had it in his heart to divorce her quietly, remember? They did not consumate physically until sometime after Jesus was born, yet ALREADY "man and wife", echad.)

The Father made the agreement/contract with the Groom (two parties/persons, btw, not one)....no one asked US/the Bride. We are His/saved/"married"/joined with Him at the point in which we have faith (God's work, not ours), via the Spirit (back to John 3). Think of baptism as physical consumation.

So your actually saying "NO... Eek

you dont have to repent to be saved"???

DUDE!!!! Mad

I have heard of WRONG but ....WOW! Eek

I am sorry, Ripley, but here we MUST draw the LINE!!!!
If your saying that repentance is a "work" and thus not nessisary for salvation, then you are of the Spirit of Anti-christ... plain and simple. Mad

Sugar, are you too on this boat?
What say you?

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