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First  the water did not save them spirit but there real Life in the flesh.

in the NT jesus called the living waters of life this is not a literal water like you tend to say ws.

you should visit the link I post which deals with ezk 36:25 and shows ho water is use for a future coming coming infilling of God spirit which is the Hg not literal water.

water in the OT refers to the Hg take a look at the greek it self.



as for the rock no that was literal but it did not save there spirits did it?



in saying waterr in the OT is refer to Jesus the true living waters not a literal water that saves.

Now for the Greek


Let us look at the Greek text in v. 5. We have 'gennEthE ex hudatos kai pneumatos' = 'born out of water and [born out of] spirit or [the] spiritual. One clue as to what the word 'water' means in v. 5 comes from a careful examination of the phrase 'kai pneumatos' = 'and [the] spiritual' which is directed by the verb and preposition 'gennEthE ex' = 'born out of'. The phrase 'kai pneumatos' indicates that one is born out of 'pneumatos' = 'the spiritual', i.e., the spiritual realm out of or by water. Thus when we view verse 6's statement that 'flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to spirit' and the statement in v. 5 that we are born again out of the spiritual realm by 'water'; we are left with water being symbolic of God the Holy Spirit Himself.




A) BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT = A SPIRITUAL BIRTH VIA THE EXCLUSIVE WORK OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT

The original text for the first phrase as the apostle John wrote it and under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, (2 Tim 3:16), looks like this transliterated into English:

" ean-me tis ........gennthe ex ......hudatos"

"unless ...anyone be born out of water"

"born out of water" = "gennthe ex hudatos" =

1) [Compare Titus 3:5 from the New Testament perspective]:

[Titus 3:5]:

"ouk ex .......ergon ton ....en dikaiosuen

"not .out of works which in righteousness



on ......epoiesamen emeis alla

which practiced ....we ....but



kata ...............ton autou eleon ...esosen ....emas

according to .His ...........mercy He saved us



dia .........loutrou paliggenesias

through washing again birth (regeneration)



kai ...anakainoseos pneumatos agiou"

and ...renewing ......of Spirit .....Holy"


http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#V

So, being born again, i.e., salvation unto eternal life is not achieved by practicing good works. Salvation, on the contrary, is an act of mercy by God upon the individual as it says above. Titus 3:5 parallels Jn 3:5 in that it describes being born again as a washing again birth in the realm of the Holy Spirit. This washing again birth, i.e., regeneration is exclusively the renewing process of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore salvation is portrayed here as concurrent with being born again; even two sides of the same coin. So the exclusive connection between washing & water, the Holy Spirit and regeneration is repeatedly made in God's Word.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#V

i) [Compare Ez 36:24-27 from the Old Testament]

This teaching is also substantiated in the Old Testament, especially in the passage which Jesus was referring to in His conversation with Nicodemus: The scripture which Nicodemus was sure to be familiar with relative to the phrase "born of water" is about how God will sprinkle clean water on the Jewish people...cleansing them from all sin...giving them a new heart...putting a new spirit in them...by putting His Spirit in them. (Ez 36:24-27). John 3:5's "born of water and spirit." This indeed is being born again, from above = indicated right there in the Old Testament:

i cont.) [Ez 36:24-27 cont.]:

(v. 24) "For I will take you [Israel] out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

(v. 25) I [God] will sprinkle clean water [the Holy Spirit, (v. 27)] on you and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols."

["water" - water here is the symbol for God the Holy Spirit, cp Jn 7:38-39a]:

[Compare Jn 7:38-39a]:

(v. 38) "Whoever believes in Me [Jesus Christ] as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.

(v. 39a) By this He meant the Spirit..."

[Notice that we have the possibility presented in the New Testament that water could be figurative of the Holy Spirit in the context of being born again.

Compare the O.T. passages our Lord was referring to: Isa 43:20; 44:3; 55:1 & especially 12:2-3]:

Ref Isa 44:3]:

"For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants."

[Ref Isa 55:1]:

"Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost."

[Notice the reference to waters being symbolic of the Lord]

[Ref. Isa 12:2-3]:

(v. 2) "Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The Lord, the Lord, is my strength and my song; He has become my salvation.

(v. 3) With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."

i cont.) [Ez 36:24-27 cont.]:

(v. 25) "I [God] will sprinkle clean water [the Holy Spirit] on you and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols."

[The clear understanding of the phrase "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean: I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols" has in view something physical water obviously and logically cannot do. Besides that, God is the One doing the sprinkling of clean water on Israel. Why would God be sprinkling actual physical clean water on the nation Israel? This is obviously a figure of speech, not representative of physical water. Verse 26 then continues this context to elaborate what God is going to do to Israel relative to His sprinkling of clean water on Israel, and that is; and only the Holy Spirit can do this]:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#V

(v. 26) I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; [a born again spirit, (Jn 3:5)] I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

["I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you" is clearly tied to the sprinkling of clean water in v. 25, which cannot be accomplished by sprinkling of actual physical water. And as verse 26 continues in context, "I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." Clearly all of this together is describing an operation that is in the spiritual realm and not the physical. Thus this excludes the sprinkling of physical water. Finally, verse 27 provides the spiritual reality behind using water as a figure of speech for God the Holy Spirit's operating on the nation Israel in the spiritual realm]:

(v. 27) And I will put My Spirit in you and move you to follow My decrees and be careful to keep My laws."

[So the water is tied to an operation by God the Holy Spirit. Any attempt to make water physical flies in the face of the rules of figure of speech when sprinkling of physical water cannot be expected to provide the results stipulated above in verse 27. Clearly this is a description of water as a figure of speech of God the Holy Spirit operating in the spiritual realm in the regeneration of Israel which Nicodemus should have been familiar with and drawn a parallel with what Jesus said in Jn 3:5-6.

So Jesus says in Jn 3:5 that a man must be born spiritually - born again out of the renewing of the Holy Spirit and out of the spiritual realm - otherwise he cannot enter the kingdom of God, of heaven.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jn3v18.htm#V


to end this for now i will say my self water does not literal save you it the waters that is define as flowing IN you the HG

You have hit the nail on the head! CEREMONIAL CLEANSING. The New Covenanant is not CEREMONIAL CLEANSING! It is SPIRITUAL CLEANSING  THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS!

Neither do we need to perform circumcision of the flesh - it is the SPRITUAL circumcision of the heart! "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, but in a [spiritual] circumcision [performed by] Christ by stripping off the body of the flesh (the whole corrupt, carnal nature with its passions and lusts)." (Colossians 2:11 Amplified Bible)

David

DavidJ – You must be careful with a statement such as “Born again bible believers are no longer under the Old Covenant; they are under a New Covenant”.  Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to replace it.  All of the O.T. leads to Jesus Christ so all of it is significant and is appropriate for our instruction and for understanding Jesus and his ministry.  Just because we are under a New Covenant does not mean that God ceases to save his people and offer new life through water, as he did with Israel.

The trend I notice in some of these posts is that water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are treated as two entirely different things. They are united (both/and), not separate (either/or).  John’s baptism was one of repentance, meaning that it was not yet complete, and wouldn’t be so until after the death and resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit flows where it will.  God grants it as he pleases and one of the many ways he does this is through baptism.  We see this very clearly presented to us at Jesus’ baptism where the skies tear open and the Spirit descends upon Jesus.  Likewise scripture tells us in (Acts 2:38, KJV):

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.”  

God grants the graces of the Holy Spirit in many ways, and baptism is clearly one of them.

So I agree with you completely that salvation is and always has been by regeneration through the Holy Spirit.  We are “saved” every time God graces us with the power of His Spirit.  Baptism is not a substitute for the work of the Holy Spirit but, just as throughout the O.T. the waters were one of the many means by which God saved his people and offered them new life, God continues to make His grace present to us by the Holy Spirit received through the waters of baptism.  If God did not grant the H.S. through water baptism, it would be a meaningless ritual.  If baptism was a meaningless, or even merely a symbolic act, Jesus would not have commanded us to be baptized.

I also agree with you that faith is the essential ingredient for salvation.  We are saved by grace through faith. Some believe salvation is an instantaneous and permanent event while others see it as a lifelong process.  The seed of faith is planted and is cultivated through God’s grace.  If the seed is on the edge of the path, the birds eat it up.  If it’s on rocky ground, it may quickly spring up but has no depth and it withers away.  If it is among thorns, it gets choked out.  If it is planted in rich soil, it is cultivated and grows through God’s grace.

The quotes you provided in no way downplay the significance of baptism.  In Acts 1:5, Jesus is foretelling of Pentecost where the H.S. would be poured out in abundance, changing baptism from merely a ceremonial washing of repentance to a means by which the Holy Spirit is received.  In John 4:2, all this is saying is that Jesus did not baptize. It is a sacrament for his disciples to perform:

“Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Jesus clearly commands the apostles to perform baptism as part of the Great Commission.

So how can you use scripture to claim that Jesus was downplaying the significance of baptism when in Mathew he puts baptism as part of the Great Commission? Remember that the WHOLE of scripture (yes even the Old Covenant scriptures) must be taken into account, not just isolated verses.

Sugarman,

I’ve gone through what you copied from another site and have the following comments:

- Why do you choose this site?  Who is the author and how can I trust what he has to say?  All you really are presenting is another person’s interpretation of scripture.  I can find material from self-proclaimed experts all over the internet - I would much rather hear what you have to say.
- The author makes a sharp distinction between the physical and spiritual realms.  This borders on a heretical belief held by Gnostics. They denied the physical humanity of Jesus and extended this into a belief that everything of the physical realm was evil and only that of the spiritual realm was good.  This extended into the treatment of the physical world and the spiritual as two distinct, rather than two integrated realms. The author is erroneously separating the physical and spiritual realms. Don’t you agree that God works in both of them?  The erroneous conclusion he makes is that “born of water” cannot mean baptism and must be “symbolic of the spiritual world”.  In other words, he makes the claim that water baptism and regeneration through the Holy Spirit are separate because one is in the physical world and the other in the spiritual.
- He then makes the following true statement “BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT = A SPIRITUAL BIRTH VIA THE EXCLUSIVE WORK OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT”.  I agree with this statement.  The problem is that in order to support his man-made tradition, he must again separate the physical and spiritual worlds by insisting that it is not through the waters of baptism that we receive a spiritual birth through the exclusive work of God the H.S.
- He then makes the following true statement: “BEING BORN AGAIN IS NOT VIA WORKS BUT VIA THE "WASHING" WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT - GOD'S WORK OF MERCY NOT OF MERIT FOR ANY HUMAN DOING”.  I agree fully with this but the author makes the erroneous assumption that water baptism is a “work”.  Baptism, as commanded by Jesus himself, is a work of the Holy Spirit. “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

So as far as I can determine, a lot of what this link has to say is absolutely true.  The only problem is that all of the conclusions are based on the PRESUPPOSITION that God does not work through the physical realm.  This is a clear scriptural error as we can see that Israel was saved numerous times through physical water.  The author needs to take the physical realities of the O.T., and the Jewish roots of our faith into consideration in his interpretations. The author is forcing into his conclusions the man-made tradition of baptism being only symbolic.