DavidJ – You must be careful with a statement such as “Born again bible believers are no longer under the Old Covenant; they are under a New Covenant”........
I respectfully suggest it is you who must be careful to read scripture, i.e.,
"When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." (Hebrews 8:13 Amplified Bible)
From this very clear statement the born again bible believer can safely accept all your Old Covenant references to Jewish cermononial washing (baptism) is dispensed with altogether.
David
- Why do you choose this site? Who is the author and how can I trust what he has to say? All you really are presenting is another person’s interpretation of scripture. I can find material from self-proclaimed experts all over the internet - I would much rather hear what you have to say.
before I even gin useing sites for this same debate in why I believe in Jesus I was using my own words and i found sites that just back up what i already believe and had said.
The author makes a sharp distinction between the physical and spiritual realms. This borders on a heretical belief held by Gnostics. They denied the physical humanity of Jesus and extended this into a belief that everything of the physical realm was evil and only that of the spiritual realm was good. This extended into the treatment of the physical world and the spiritual as two distinct, rather than two integrated realms. The author is erroneously separating the physical and spiritual realms. Don’t you agree that God works in both of them?
If you look on that site he does not deny Jesus Humanity at alll and yes God works through both literal water to save there literal body from dying and symbolic also when refering to the Hg in the spiritual world.
He then makes the following true statement “BORN OF WATER AND SPIRIT = A SPIRITUAL BIRTH VIA THE EXCLUSIVE WORK OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT”. I agree with this statement. The problem is that in order to support his man-made tradition, he must again separate the physical and spiritual worlds by insisting that it is not through the waters of baptism that we receive a spiritual birth through the exclusive work of God the H.S.
Did you look at the greek and also
1. scriptures say living waters flowing in you this is not an outside literal water. the literal water is what as the image of what truly saves us.
The waters thatsave us flows from within not without and this count out literal water.
He then makes the following true statement: “BEING BORN AGAIN IS NOT VIA WORKS BUT VIA THE "WASHING" WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT - GOD'S WORK OF MERCY NOT OF MERIT FOR ANY HUMAN DOING”. I agree fully with this but the author makes the erroneous assumption that water baptism is a “work”. Baptism, as commanded by Jesus himself, is a work of the Holy Spirit. “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
again the holy spirit works from within not without again read the plan text flowing waters from within You.
Literal baptism is what symbolic shows us what literal puts us in the body The HG.
So as far as I can determine, a lot of what this link has to say is absolutely true. The only problem is that all of the conclusions are based on the PRESUPPOSITION that God does not work through the physical realm. This is a clear scriptural error as we can see that Israel was saved numerous times through physical water. The author needs to take the physical realities of the O.T., and the Jewish roots of our faith into consideration in his interpretations. The author is forcing into his conclusions the man-made tradition of baptism being only symbolic.
Please serach around he does not deny God cannot work in the human world but when it comes to salvation this is something spirtual.
Also look at theword baptism it self ita noun not a verb.
The noun it not the action it self it the verb and the verb is the Hg and the noun is the water baptism.
look at faith it also a noun not a verb
scripture it clear it living waters flowing with in YOU the flowing waters is the Hg and this what SAVES not the outside flowing waters
ohn 7:38 (King James Version)
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
is this literal WS
or john 4 about giving us water that give us everlasting life is this is it the phsycial water that gave us this life or the HG which is define as living waters in you?
Plus john 3:5 if you read close he is refering to be born out of water is of the phsyical world but not baptism but phsyical human birth.
When we are born we come out of water and when Jesus says born of spirit now we switch to the spiritual world the HG
Another thing which makes since why would Jesus tell him you need to baptism to be saved if he was under the OT?
Whatabut the theif on the cross?
The main answer is given because he under the Ot so why would Jesus tell the rabbi you need to be baptism if he was under the OT?
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html
another view besides physical birth is this which I tend to see after reading this, it about physical birth after reading the greek text in it.
o correct my self after reading that site it not about physical.
Sorry I forgot Not after the word It
DavidJ – You must be careful with a statement such as “Born again bible believers are no longer under the Old Covenant; they are under a New Covenant”........
I respectfully suggest it is you who must be careful to read scripture, i.e.,
"When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." (Hebrews 8:13 Amplified Bible)
From this very clear statement the born again bible believer can safely accept all your Old Covenant references to Jewish cermononial washing (baptism) is dispensed with altogether.
David
Please carefully read my posts. I said nothing that contradicts what Hebrews 8 has to say about the New Covenant. I’m merely stating that one must use caution when understanding the relationship between the New Covenant and those preceding it.
My point is clearly made when a person makes a statement such as you have made:
“From this very clear statement the born again bible believer can safely accept all your Old Covenant references to Jewish cermononial washing (baptism) is dispensed with altogether.”
What you are essentially saying is that Old Covenant references, whether it be ceremonial washing, honoring the 10 commandments, believing that God was, is, and will be faithful to the promises made to Israel, etc. are “dispensed with altogether”.
What I’m saying is that all of the preceding covenants point to the new. They are “obsolete” not in the sense that they have been “cancelled”, but in the sense that they have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Ceremonial cleansing and circumcision are fulfilled in baptism, the Exodus and Passover are fulfilled in the death and resurrection of the True Passover Lamb, the sacrificial system is fulfilled in the Final Sacrifice, etc. I believe this is the point that is being made in the letter to the Hebrews.
If you look at other translations of this passage, the word “vanish” or “disappear” is used in lieu of “dispensed with altogether”. My personal feeling is that the later translation connotes a rejection whereas the former connotes a “fading away” because of fulfillment with something better.
What you are essentially saying is that Old Covenant references, whether it be ceremonial washing, honoring the 10 commandments, believing that God was, is, and will be faithful to the promises made to Israel, etc. are “dispensed with altogether”.onnotes a “fading away” because of fulfillment with something better.....
No, I have said nothing of the kind!
You see W, I was an Atheist; maybe you may care to read my testimony in Post #3 on http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/showthrea...87#pid5787
Under the New Covenant God places His Law on our hearts and writes it on our minds INDIVIDUALLY by His Holy Spirit. What He writes on our minds and hearts (not the written Word) gives eternal life.
".... this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33)
"'This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days,' says the Lord: 'I will put My laws upon their hearts and will write them on their minds;'" (Hebrews 10:16)
When God does that to the born again believer, God has shown me to resist persons like yourself who try to do it by the 'written law', because God's Word is very clear on that point, "He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6 New Living Translation)
So we can see from God's Word the Roman Church with its relliance on the 'written code' brings death. So I implore you W to really seek the Lord before you continue to peddle this stuff.
David