JFJ Forums

Your "personal feeling", being patently clouded by the error of Romanism,  is not only totally irrelevant but misleading when compared  to the original meaning of the original words used in scripture; it matters not which version is used - the original Greek words and their meaning remain constant; New Testament Greek is a dead language therefore its meaning remained unchanged. So lets look at the FACTS!

"Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end." (Hebrews 8:13 Douay-Rheims Bible)

Decayeth = Strongs word 1095. Greek 'gerasko'. Definition:  1) to grow old       2) of things and institutions: to fail from age, be obsolescent.

groweth old, is near its end = Strongs word 854. Greek  'aphanismos'. Definition:  1) disappearance  2) destruction.

David

wk~




Exactly! Whereas it ALL was "ceremonial", it is all now a reality.

I would suppose that Paul would say to you something similar to what he said to circumcizers: if water cleanses you of sin, NEVER GET OUT OF THE WATER! DROWN YOURSELF!

The point is that CIRCUMCISION, not ceremonial cleansing was the physical sign of the covenant, today He circumcizes our hearts; THE New Covenant. What is the seal/sign of the New Covenant? Baptism with water? No. The Holy Spirit is our seal. Baptism is STILL a ceremony that shows the world/testifies to the INWARD CLEANSING that has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE.

An outward sign is an outward sign is an outward sign....circumcision or baptism. Same/same. So, all those verses that apply to circumcision as not being meaningful if one's heart is not right, the word "circumcision" can be replaced with "baptism". Baptism is not magic, it is preceded by our faith in Him. Without faith, it is of no use whatsoever. Period.

If *it* is regenerative, then let's not waste time sharing the gospel, let's just get to nabbing people and baptizing them!

Circumcision, ceremonial. Circumcision of our hearts, actual.
Mikveh/cleansing with water, ceremonial. Holy Spirit cleansing, actual.
High Priest, ceremonial. Jesus our High Priest, actual.
Sacrificial lambs, ceremonial. God's Lamb, actual.
Holy of Holies in Temple, ceremonial. Holy of Holies in heaven, actual.

DavidJ –

You said: “Under the New Covenant God places His Law on our hearts and writes it on our minds INDIVIDUALLY by His Holy Spirit. What He writes on our minds and hearts (not the written Word) gives eternal life.”

I say:   I agree with you 100%.  The differences we have are in how God accomplishes this and whether this infusion is completed in a single instantaneous event or if it is a life long process of conversion through the Holy Spirit.

You see “salvation” as an instantaneous event and therefore the role of baptism and faith with regards to salvation can only be seen as an either/or rather than a both/and.  So when you read a passage in scripture that says ….

(Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(1Pt 3:20f) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Or
(Ez 36:25ff)Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

… you immediately make the assumption that this must be something figurative rather than literal.  You say this cannot refer to baptism because it would be a “work” so it must mean something other than it’s plain and straightforward meaning in scripture.  Baptism is not a “work” – it’s a physical, tangible, sacramental way by which God confers grace.

The numerous O.T. references to Israel being saved through water are not “ceremonial” actions that are cancelled by the New Covenant nor are they “works” of Israel.  They were all unmerited graces granted by God to save his people.  These were “shadows of the things to come”, the very same graces that God grants through what Jesus Christ accomplished for us.  These graces do not replace faith, they complement and nurture it.  This is precisely why many Protestants agree with Catholics and EO and believe in regenerative infant baptism.

You have your understanding and I have mine.  We both agree we are under a New and Everlasting Covenant.  If you want to consider the promises made to Israel as cancelled or destroyed, that's fine with me.  I prefer to think of them as being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Ripley’s -  You don’t have to “suppose” what Paul would say, you can read it in scripture.  He wouldn’t say “DROWN YOURSELF”, he says:

(Rm 6:3f) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So Paul would say that to enter into the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you should immerse yourselves in the waters of baptism, and rising from these waters, be restored to new life in Jesus Christ. Not in lieu of faith, but complementary to it.

I agree with you completely that under the New Covenant, our hearts are circumcised.  I agree that the Holy Spirit is our seal.  But you are using the same either/or mentality as DavidJ which is neither a Jewish way of thinking nor is it scriptural.  This either/or mentality forces you to spiritualize away many verses in scripture (see previous reply to DavidJ).

Baptism is NOT the same as circumcision.  If it were, there would hardly be any reason to introduce it under the New Covenant.  The Great Commission calls us to be baptized, not circumcised.  Circumcision and Mikveh were “shadows of things to come”.  These Old Testament ordinances (not “ceremonies”) are fulfilled in baptism.  Your right – baptism is not “magic” – it’s called GRACE.  We don’t have to work for it, it’s a purely unmerited gift from God, a gift to complement and nurture our faith.

“If *it* is regenerative, then let's not waste time sharing the gospel, let's just get to nabbing people and baptizing them!”  <-- either/or mentality – neither Jewish nor scriptural.

(cont …)

(… cont)
“Circumcision, ceremonial. Circumcision of our hearts, actual.”
Circumcision – Commanded by God as part of Israel’s covenant relationship.  A shadow of baptism which, along with faith, is part of the initiation into the New Covenant.

“Mikveh/cleansing with water, ceremonial. Holy Spirit cleansing, actual.”
Mikveh – Commanded by God to purify.  High Priests performed this, at God’s command, to cleanse themselves before entering into God’s REAL presence in the Holy of Holies.  A shadow of baptism where we are cleansed from the stain of original sin so that we, as priests under the New Covenant, along with faith in Jesus Christ, can enter into God’s REAL presence.

“High Priest, ceremonial. Jesus our High Priest, actual.”
Priesthood – Commanded by God to offer sacrifice.  Foreshadow of the Eternal High Priest who offers Himself as a sacrifice for all.  As priests, we too offer sacrifice to God through Jesus Christ, our High Priest.

“Sacrificial lambs, ceremonial. God's Lamb, actual.”
Sacrificial lambs - Commanded by God.  A shadow of the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God.  A shadow of the sprinkling of the blood of the Passover Lamb.  A shadow of eating the flesh of the Passover Lamb.

“Holy of Holies in Temple, ceremonial. Holy of Holies in heaven, actual.”
Holy of Holies – the True and Real Presence of God (not symbolic).  A foreshadow of the True and Real Presence under the New Covenant.

Some you forgot:
“Passover – ceremonial”
Passover – enacted by God and commanded to be celebrated.  A foreshadow of the Passover Lamb who releases us from bondage to sin, destroys our enemies and death, and brings us into the Promised Land.  A foreshadowing of the celebration of the Passover Lamb in the Eucharist.

“Sacrifice of Melchizedech – ceremonial”
Todah or “Thanksgiving Sacrifice” of bread and wine.  A foreshadow of the bread and wine offered as a sacrifice in the Eucharist.

“Semicha – ceremonial”
Semicha – commanded by God to Moses so that his “people will not be like sheep without a shepherd”. A foreshadowing of apostolic succession.

These “ceremonies” were not meaningless, inconsequential “rituals”.  They were commanded by God as a torah and teaching to prepare the way for Jesus Christ.  They all see their fulfillment in some way (e.g. baptism, Eucharist, faith) under the New Covenant.

Or
(Ez 36:25ff)Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

… you immediately make the assumption that this must be something figurative rather than literal.  You say this cannot refer to baptism because it would be a “work” so it must mean something other than it’s plain and straightforward meaning in scripture.  Baptism is not a “work” – it’s a physical, tangible, sacramental way by which God confers grace.

The numerous O.T. references to Israel being saved through water are not “ceremonial” actions that are cancelled by the New Covenant nor are they “works” of Israel.  They were all unmerited graces granted by God to save his people.  These were “shadows of the things to come”, the very same graces that God grants through what Jesus Christ accomplished for us.  These graces do not replace faith, they complement and nurture it.  This is precisely why many Protestants agree with Catholics and EO and believe in regenerative infant baptism.

ws it clear the waters in that scripture is picture of the new spirit being put in his people.


The perfect picture of this is when the girl by the well.

She ask give me this water so I can live forever.


Is this literal water or jesus talking about the living waters which flows inside us?

wk~



The chapter begins with "should we continue in sin?"
Paul is saying that those of us who have publickly identified ourselves with Jesus by being baptized should walk in "a newness of life": a change should take place, we cannot continue in live like we once did.

He is not saying that because we were baptized, we *are* walking a that newness. That whole chapter is one of admonishment/warning, not acknowledgement.

The emphasis is not on baptism but conduct.

Once again the basis of our disagreement lays in our participation in salvation or yielding to it. I believe we yield, you believe we participate. That is not an attack, just an observation. And it is an either/or in regards to our salvation. Obedience is another matter. I do think that we should be baptized as a matter of obedience, in response to our salvation, not to participate in it.

Was circumcision the covenant, or prerequisite? No, it was a sign of the covenant already made.
Is baptism the new covenant or prerequisite? No, it is a sign of the covenant already made.

But another chapter in Romans makes it clear that no works equal, or bring trust/faith:
Romans 4 CJB The whole chapter, but summed up here:
vv 13, 14- For the promise to Avraham and his seed that he would inherit the world did not come through legalism but through the righteousness that trust produces. For if the heirs are produced by legalism, then trust is pointless and the promise worthless.

17(b) Avraham is our father in God's sight because he trusted God as the one who gives life to the dead and calls nonexistent things into existence.
-emphasis mine-

The only participation is trust/faith in God's ability to do what He says He will despite the natural facts. Abraham was dead/unable to bring about what God promised, yet he believed. We are dead/unable to bring about what God has promised, yet we believe.

Trusting God alone is the central theme of the Bible.

-cont-

wk posted:



Yes, he makes us clean/regenerated/a new creation via regeneration by the Holy Spirit, so that we CAN walk in His statutes, including baptism. Grace, through faith, UNTO good works. Grace and faith are gifts from God. Our response is good works/obedience. Baptism is our response.

"Repent (FIRST), and be baptized (SECOND)" (Which is ALWAYS the order in every scripture that mentions baptism.)

but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) - an unregenerate (dead) man/person will NEVER have "the answer of a good conscience toward God."  Romans 8:7 CJB For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot.
-emphasis mine-

The natural man is dead in sin. Read 2 Cor 5 CJB
v 14-For the Messiah's love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead),

-cont-

-cont-




It is not either/or, it IS both/and. But cause and effect. IF you have faith, you WILL be obedient [and be baptized]. Not that baptism is how we gain/participate in/bring about grace.

Salvation is immediate and complete. There is NO CONDEMNATION in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 CJB What follows is "conforming". Everyday we (should) be conforming to the mind/righteousness perspective of God. Back to 2 Cor 5, v 17- Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation - the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new!

Gal 6:15 CJB- For neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is being a new creation.

Which is also why we see our "less sinful selves" (compared to life without Messiah) as even more disgusting, and fully reliant on His atonement/covering.

cf: Romans 7:14-25 CJB Our final cry, like Paul's, who was baptized: What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."

Here is where the "either/or" comes in: EITHER His atonement is sufficient, OR it is not. EITHER faith is accounted to us as righteousness, and we are seed of Abraham, heirs of the Promise, OR not.

But, you don't even really believe it is a lifelong process, but one that can't be completed in life at all. Correct? Further purging/penance necessary.

What your error is, IMO, is that because of Christ, our sentence (death penalty, nothing less) is suspended..a plea agreement has been made by God for us. He paid the fine in full, so we don't have to, not even "partially"...we actually have no part in it at all other than trusting the terms of the plea bargain (faith). If we refuse it, the whole of the Law is against us, including the death penalty.

-cont-