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Ripley’s – remember that scripture was not written with chapter and verse numbers.  It is more appropriate to say where the theme of this passage begins, not where the chapter begins.  Beginning in 5:12, Paul talks about Adam being the prefigurement of Jesus (5:14) (just like the type/ante-type I’ve been mentioning with regards to baptism).  Paul proclaims that “there is no comparison between the free gift and the offence” (5:15).  Paul talks about this gift of grace using “how much greater” language and describes this gift as being through Jesus Christ.  So I believe the major theme here is God’s grace.

In these passages, Paul talks about the “fullness of grace” 5:17.  Absolutely nowhere in these passages does he make any distinction between faith and baptism.  Nowhere does Paul proclaim, as you have, that baptism is only a means of public identification.  This is an example of reading protestant tradition into scripture.  Paul is talking about the FULLNESS of God’s grace and he specifically mentions baptism (remember, baptism is a gift of God’s grace, not a “work”).  This would have been a perfect time and setting for Paul to make the “Sola-Fide” proclamation but he does no such thing.  He only mentions the Graces of Baptism (though of course we know faith is likewise presumed).  In other words, Paul is preaching a both/and, not an either or.

Notice also in this passage that while Paul is exalting the Graces of God, he is also exhorting us to act on our faith.  We have been freed from sin so should we continue to walk in it?  Out of the question!  This is where we cooperate with God’s Grace.  The analogy I like to use is that God’s grace has unlocked the gates of our imprisonment to sin.  It is as if the jail doors have been opened.  We can stay in sin or we can walk through the gate into freedom.  Israel was faced with the same opportunity.  They were freed from Egypt but many preferred Egypt over the sufferings in the desert and wanted to return.  Israel cooperated with God’s grace and journeyed in faith and grace into the Promised Land.  They were given the free will to choose whom they would serve and to choose life.  We too have the same choices, the same free will, and therefore the same calling to cooperate with God’s grace.  Grace is not forced upon us, it is offered to us over and over again.  We do well to accept it in every form in which God grants it to us.
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I was baptized as an infant.  I can remember no period in my childhood, where I did not have faith in God.  I know many people who have experienced God’s Grace in this very way.  It is often described as being “born into faith”.  This is what often happens in a covenant relationship that is familial rather than “personal” and I suspect this was often the case in Israel as well.  This is Grace!  Requiring a person to identify with some (often times contrived) instantaneous event, in order to be “saved” is not scriptural.  Not every Christian experiences a Road to Damascus.  Those who have been graced with such an experience should be thankful and not judgmental of others who have experienced God’s grace through less extraordinary means.  I actually had a Bible Study Fellowship preacher tell me and about 150 others that if we didn’t know the exact date and event of our salvation, we’d better re-think our relationship with Jesus Christ.

Much of your post #70 is quite beautiful and I agree with a great deal of it.  Faith truly is what saves us.  But I can’t help but get the feeling that your definition of “faith” is “to believe”.  Yes, we can find verses in scripture that might lead us to conclude that believing is all that is necessary.  But the entirety of scripture leads to a deeper understanding of what “faith” really is.   We know that Satan believes in Jesus Christ and he of course is not “saved”.  You also rightly point out that a condition for salvation is to repent.  We also know that Jesus must be our Lord, so we must also submit to his will.  Likewise, we are called to place our trust in him.  James clearly tells us that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (2:24).  Thankfully, through faith, God gives us the grace we need for such works.  Paul tells us in 1Cor13:2 that we are nothing if our faith is not working in love. Jesus tells us that though we may proclaim him as Lord, it is only the person who does the will of God that will enter into heaven (Mt 7:21).  Thankfully, through faith, God gives us the grace to do his will. Jesus tells us that those who persevere to the end will be saved (Mt 24:13) which Paul echoes in his epistles (Rm 2:6, 2Tm2:12).  Thankfully, God grants us the grace we need to persevere.
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So I do agree that it is through faith that we are saved.  Scripture tells us that saving faith is more than merely believing.  Saving faith must lead to repentance, submission to God, trust in him, lead to good works, it must work in love, it must lead us to do God’s will, and it must persevere.  Maybe some people in this forum have received this kind of faith in one instantaneous event. Maybe they can already move mountains or walk on water – I don’t know.  As for me, my faith is a bit like a seed that was planted at some time in my past, whether it be in baptism or whenever.  I pray that through God’s abundant grace, I may become rich soil for this seed to grow.  Someday I might have the kind of faith that allows me to fully submit to God, to fully trust in Him, to love him with all my heart, soul, and strength, to truly love my enemies, to lay down my life for another, rather than to just proclaim I do.  Maybe some in this forum truly have this kind of saving faith or maybe they just think they do – I don’t know.  As for me, through participation in God’s grace, I choose to continue to do my best to serve the Lord.

wk~



This is one of those nuanced sentences that sounds correct on the surface, but I cannot agree with.

We don't cooperate with His grace, we "answer it with a good conscience." His grace brings us to obedience, not the other way around.



WADR wk, I know MANY PEOPLE who were baptized as infants, not all RCC, but RCC as well, who don't know the LORD at all. And of those who do, it's because their parents really believed and followed Deut. and taught their children when they sat down, and when they rose up. OR, like in my case, baptized in the Methodist church as an infant, to please my grandparents, but raised by non-Christians, He opened my eyes at 29.
However, I do not agree that for all people it is a Road to Damscus event, either. Adn I certainly don't agree with that pastor you mention.




Knowing somehting as fact and TRUSTING are two different things. Faith is the substance of things not seen. And to my knowledge this has nothing to do with regenerative baptism, does it?




Everyone who is a follower of the LORD has the kind of faith that is the topic of this thread: regenerative. What you are describing here is liflelong conforming/growth in Him. Two different things. No one on earth has/had it down "pat"...not the prophets, not kings, not even the Apostles. We are not perfect and won't be until we get to heaven. We continue to deal with our flesh.

Let's go back to the Hebrews under Moses. They had the "saving faith" that took them out of Egypt (one time event)...but did NOT TRUST in God's Promise (daily)...which is why they did NOT live to see the Promised Land, their children did. One is to Life, and the other to life (here and after) more abundant.

romans 4

We see that  it was His belief that counted him for being right with God.

If you understand this chapter you see it not because he acted on works  that he is saved it because he Believe on God that what saved Him and it was because he believe he acted on his faith.

Faith is not a verb WS it an noun.

when One truly Believe on Jesus Christ they are saved.

we see this in acts 16 and then later On they were baptism not for salvation but remember he told  them to Believe on Jesus as the requirement for baptism because only believers can be baptism.

Also wh  if baptism is faith it self if you can not separate the two  why do the apostles then separate them?

why do they tell people to Believe and you will be saved and THEN baptism them?

why Not tell them you must act on your faith to be saved not that because you Believe you are able to be saved and do good works unto God?

also the nt make it clear we are saved  by faith through grace you are saved.

what is grace in this verse? easy the ablilty to be able to simple believe in Jesus.


when do good works come into action? easy after the person is a new creature in Christ Jesus.

they are saved not because they acted on there faith but they are saved because they have merely Believe and repented and it because they done that they are able to act on there faith.



also to explain james 2:4 it does not mean works are needed for salvation or you need to do anything for salvation but rather james is trying to express a True believer saved by Believe in Jesus WILL bear fruits Because if they are truly a christian  that they truly repented and Believe in jesus they will bear fruits.

I said:



And I was baptized, again. In response to His grace, and obedience to His word. And I invited all my unbelieving family to witness the event of me (and many others) publickly proclaiming His possession of me that was already reality.

It is not that I think baptism unimportant. And I only mention this to demonstrate that.

My own son was "dedicated" as an infant before our congregation (a public promise, to God by us, his parents, to bring him up in the knowledge of the LORD), and baptized at the age of 6, after we were sure he understood that it wasn't just getting dunked by the pastor...and about two years after he first expressed the desire. (We wanted to make sure that he understood what he was doing...because baptism *is* a VERY important event and celebration in our church, we wanted to know that his heart was right -circumcized by God- and not just wanting to be "part of the party", so to speak. But we could not put off/disregard the leading of the Holy Spirit to his spirit. Ultimately, we asked that our pastor have a private talk with him to determine his understanding, and our pastor agreed that he understood.)

I have a very high view of baptism...so none of this conversation should be construed as me saying it is not important. Just want to make that clear.

Indeed, we do well to exercise our free will and answer his grace with a good conscience.  To fail to answer it is to turn from his grace and to be disobedient.  Answering to it, we cooperate with his grace.  He does not force us - we respond to it and in our cooperation with it, become participants in our own salvation.  We always have a choice.  Jesus says “He who wishes to be my disciple must pick up his cross and follow me” – a choice.  Our eternal salvation is not something that “happens to us”, it is offered to us through God’s abundant grace.  This is the theme throughout scripture.  God offers his grace, we accept or reject it.  We choose whom we will serve, we choose life or death.

Bear in mind that I’ve never said that baptism alone brings about eternal salvation.  Baptism is one of the many means by which God offers his grace which leads to our salvation.   Just as we all know someone who has been baptized and doesn’t know the Lord, we all know some who have “accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior” and have since fallen away.  So it is with baptism – it is not a guarantee of eternal salvation.  In the Catholic Church, infant baptism is only to be offered to children of believing and practicing parents with the promise that the child will be raised in faith.  This is the familial covenant relationship in which Christian children are to be raised.  This is why I believe it is more appropriate to describe the proper relationship with Jesus as “intimate and familial” rather than “personal”.  It was the very same for Israel as you rightly point out from Deut.  Faith was never seen as exclusively personal but rather as both intimate and familial. Covenant language in scripture is not exclusively in legal terms but also in familial.  “I shall be your God and you shall be my people”.  Infant baptism is never to be performed to please someone else.  Adult baptism is offered only after the person has made a public testimony to their faith.  In both cases, they are complementary, not either/or.
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The reason I mention faith is because you are bringing the protestant tradition of “Sola-Fide” into this discussion.  When many talk about “faith alone”, they tend to understand it as “believing alone”.  Satan believes – he is not saved.  That is why I can agree we are saved by “faith” if it is properly defined.  Satan believes in Jesus Christ but certainly does not have saving faith. Israel had “saving faith” that brought them out of Egypt.  They were saved from slavery and offered new life.  However their “faith” was not one of complete trust and that generation did not enter into the Promised Land.  What a perfect metaphor for us.  I have a friend who was diagnosed with melanoma and his prognosis was not good.  He turned to Jesus Christ for salvation and was delivered from his illness.  Shortly after, he felt he no longer had a need for a savior and turned away.  He did not persevere as we are exhorted to do so many times in scripture.

My friend offers as an example something pertinent to your post…
You said: “Everyone who is a follower of the LORD has the kind of faith that is the topic of this thread: regenerative. What you are describing here is liflelong conforming/growth in Him. Two different things. No one on earth has/had it down "pat"...not the prophets, not kings, not even the Apostles. We are not perfect and won't be until we get to heaven. We continue to deal with our flesh.”

I agree that “everyone who is a FOLLOWER of the Lord” has faith that leads to regeneration and new life.  By picking up our crosses and “following” our Lord, we become participants in our salvation.  This is faith – to not only believe but to follow and to accept all of the graces God offers.  My friend believed and followed.  As soon as he was delivered from his sufferings, he exercised his free will and turned away.  He did not persevere.  And I also agree with you – “We are not perfect and won’t be until we get to heaven” but this thread is not about purgatory and whether we are truly made perfect or if we are merely given the appearance of being perfect (see Mourners Kiddush thread for a Jewish perspective on this).
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I don’t believe you think baptism is unimportant.  We just disagree on the meaning of it.  You see it as a “work” or an “act of obedience”.  I see it as a free gift of God’s grace, so much so that, along with many Protestants, believe it is proper to administer to infants.  You see “faith alone” as the only way to enter into a covenant relationship with God.  I see the relationship between faith and baptism as a both/and.  For infants born into a family that has already entered into this covenant relationship, I see baptism as a means of initiation into this same covenant relationship or, as you put it, “part of the party”.  (Perhaps this is what the Protestant tradition of “infant dedication” is – can you point this practice out from N.T. scripture or show any evidence of it being performed prior to the reformation?)  You see that a child must be “tested” and prove themselves before they can be baptized.  I see from scripture that entire households were baptized and that nowhere was a child put to test or denied baptism or entry into the covenant relationship his family shared because of age.  Perhaps that is what Jesus meant when he said: “let the children come to me”.

The concept of salvation as a process is very difficult for many Protestants to accept.  I believe this is because of the Protestant tradition of “Once Saved Always Saved”, held only by a subset of Protestants.  If this is accepted as truth, despite the numerous passages from scripture that refute it, then one can never accept salvation as a process.  It must be instantaneous and permanent or the “P” in TULIP breaks down.  If the “P” is true, then eternal salvation must be tied to a very specific instance and discrete point in time.  Since faith and baptism cannot be concurrent, then the relationship becomes either/or rather than both/and and, despite scripture and the hundreds of pre-reformation church writings, baptism becomes “symbolic” and a “work”, rather than an outpouring of God’s grace.