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It's quite more than simply symbolic..it's like a marriage ceremony. It's very important, but it is not the marriage. It's not even the consumation. We are echad/united with God when His Holy Spirit dwells in us. That is my view.

Personally, I don't believe that people who profess faith and fall away had real FAITH to begin with. Not because of Protestant teaching, but because of *my* relationship with Him. (And I think that "P" might be the only part of Calvinism I agree with...LOL)

We know, that we know, that we know He REALLY IS. Not just that He is, but that He has a plan for our lives, and is not only our Righteous King, but loving Abba. We have a RELATIONSHIP with Him, not just a head-knowledge. Right?

I cannot imagine ANYTHING that could make me "fall away"...like Peter, I would have to say, "To whom can we go? You have the words of life!!!" [paraphrase]

wk~



and I said:



I want to talk about this a little more. Yes, He describes things in a familial way, we are not only children, but are His "spouse". In the same way that husaband and wife are one/echad, we are one with Him.

Paul says it like this: "Therefore a man will leave his father and mother and remain with his wife, and the two will become one." There is profound truth hidden here, which I say concerns the Messiah and the Messianic Community. Eph 5:31,32 CJB

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; RSV

So very intimate is His one-to-one, face-to-face, relationship with us that we are one/joined/echad with Him, like husband and wife (are supposed to be), that we can stand (spiritually) naked before Him and not be ashamed. cf: Song of Songs/Solomon for couples' relationship paralleled to our relationship with Him.

Is marital "joining" (consumation) a one-time event, or does it take a lifetime to accomplish? I say it is a one-time event. Just like the Holy Spirit infilling (consuming) us. Then we become one. It's private. It's personal. No one but us and God. Deep to deep.

Now, in marriage growing in knowledge of each other, learning how to better please each other, abiding and communing with each other is a lifelong process. Same with us toward our LORD.

Ripley’s – I absolutely love the analogy.

In sacramental theology, there is always a partnering with the physical and spiritual.  God makes himself manifest in the physical world as he did in the burning bush, the pillar of smoke …., leading to the fulfillment of his physical presence in the person of Jesus Christ, and continues to do so in his Real Presence in the Eucharist.  In baptism, the spiritual and physical worlds unite in an act of God’s grace.

Marriage is a sign of the Trinity, and Catholics, and perhaps some other Protestants, believe it to be a sacrament.  Two becoming one, so much so (consummation) that new life is brought forth in a third person.  The third person is unique yet embodies the two and the three are one (family).  This, along with many other reasons, is why the Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception is contrary to the will of God.  (In fact, prior to ~1930, all Protestant denominations taught contraception is wrong).

Another idea in sacramental theology is the concept of covenant renewal.  God many times renewed his covenant with Israel.  The marriage covenant is continually renewed through the marital act of love, each time having the potential to bring forth new life.  Love brings life into the world.

So with the act of marital love, it indeed is very intimate.  But in the spiritual realm, it is not (at least shouldn’t be) an act between only husband and wife, as Paul points out in the quote you provide.  It is a profound mystery.  It is through this act we become participants in the fulfillment of one of the promises God made to Abraham ( I suppose another argument against contraception).  Through this physical act of love, we participate in the physical building of the Church, the body of Christ, all to the glory of God.

Before this consummation of love, husband and wife seek each other out, get to know each other, invite Christ into the relationship, make promises between one another and ultimately before God to be faithful and love one another until death.  These spiritual promises are united in the physical realm through the consummation of the marriage.  So I see it as a process for this simple reason – which of these events could be done away with and still have a solid marriage?

Furthermore, is the marriage now “complete”?  Yes and no.  I liken it to the parable of the seed and the sewer.  The seed is planted (quite literally in fact), the marriage is consummated, and the relationship grows.  If this marital seed is not planted in rich soil, it will wither away, get choked out by weeds, etc.  It is the continual repetition of the original seeking and finding intimacy, loving, unity with Christ, renewal of the covenant in the conjugal act, that nurtures the oneness of the relationship and brings forth new life in man, woman, child, and body of Christ.

Here is where you and I differ in view though, I think: one can't be "a little married", or "almost married'. We either are, or aren't. Good/solid marriage or not, we are still married/joined/echad.

Same with salvation. Our "participation" is to have that "solid marriage", but either way, we are still echad with Messiah.

Blessings, wk.

I have to admit, this is a bit of a mystery.  My first thoughts are that I agree with you – that we are either married or unmarried.  But then the natural question is at what point in time are we married?  Seems to me that this would be when both make a promise before God to be faithful to one another.  But then one might ask – is it at a wedding ceremony or perhaps at the betrothal or engagement?  And then at what point do the two become one flesh?  At the consummation?  Definitions of “consummation” vary somewhat but the general idea is the fulfillment or completion of marriage through the conjugal act. I have to go with the both/and rather than either/or way of looking at this and see marriage as the combination of all of these.

“A little married” or “almost married” is probably not the best way of describing what is really going on.  As I think more about this, it seems to me that to be married means to be united with each other and God in BOTH the spiritual AND physical realms.  This certainly is a “Trinitarian” image of marriage: A promise made to God, in the Spirit, in which two become one flesh as God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.

Then issues also come up with the “authenticity” of the spiritual promises.  Can an immature couple “in love” with each other make a commitment before one another, lay with each other and then be married?  One might say yes, arguing that spiritual unity is strictly between man, woman, and God.  But then if we take a Jewish perspective, there probably needs to be at least two witnesses.  Now we are talking about the spiritual unity taking place in some sort of ceremony where witnesses are present.

Interesting discussion.

salvation for one to be saved to me is not a life process we are baptism by one spirit as soon as we truly turn to him for our salvation.


it what is IN salvation that is a life process us geting closer to God day by day and our knowledge increasing etc... that is a life process.

wk~

Let's look at the Bible though, there is no command/instruction for a "wedding ceremony". Sure it happens, but IMO it IS for the benefit of the witnesses. Could two people make a commitment and consumate without it in a Godly/Holy way...uh, yeah! Adam saw Eve and said, "This is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh!" THEN...LATER...he "knew" her. The commitiment/love was already there.

The wedding is the public declaration of the devotion/commitment that the couple has already decided/agreed upon...they are already spiritually one. (Up to the last 50 years, betrothal/engagement was considered a very STRONG "contract." Almost as though one was married. To break it was HUGE!) The physical joining is the "covenant seal." After that, there is no turning back/changing your mind (in the eyes of God).

In the same way, we respond to Him and He enters us. We become joined with Him.

Once again, I am not minimizing the ceremony as "merely" anything...it is not "just" symbolic it is a VERY holy event.

I posted this on another thread and thought it would help with this one as well so I copied it...
I don't believe that you have to be baptized in water (submerged in water).
It says in Mark 1:7-8, "Now John was clothed iwth camel's hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And he preached, saying, 'There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and losse. I indeed baptized you with water, but He will patize you with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:15-16 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If therefore God GAVE them the same gift as He gaves us when we BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

If you read Acts 19:1-7 this also clarifys it. I'll quote Acts 19:4-5 "Then Paul said, 'John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him WHO WOULD COME AFTER him, that is on Jesus Christ."(They didn't know Jesus had came yet...the gift of the Holy Spirit wasn't yet able to be given to everyone...for Jesus said he had to leave for a helper to come to those who believe..the Holy Spirit). When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Also, read 1 Corinthians 1:11-17....I'll site verse 17 Paul says "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but TO PREACH THE GOSPEL, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made no effect."

ALL you have to do is have FAITH and BELIEVE...FAITH is not measured by works/deeds (yes, good works/deeds will come if you have faith). Remember though, Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

If you want to be baptized in water that is fine, but don't feel like you have to be. Being baptized in water is a public display of your faith...to show others you are changed but not required to be saved.

As far as the passage quoted before John 3:5 "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God." It continues to 3:6... "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Nicodemus was asking Jesus how can you be born again and Jesus was telling him that you are born of water (natural birth) first and then of the Spirit...by believing in Him. Read all of John 3:1-8.
I TRULY BELIEVE THIS WAY...I ALWAYS THINK BACK TO THE THEIF ON THE CROSS WHO DIED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED...ONCE IN BELIVED IN JESUS CHRIST, JESUS TOLD HIM THOU SHALL SEE ME IN PARADISE TONIGHT!!!  HE WAS NOT WATER BAPTIZED.....
Hope this helps.

krisi~



I agree that one is saved with or without baptism. In fact, saved BEFORE being baptized. Baptized BECAUSE we are saved.

But, I also think that it is important to be baptized, in obedience.

That's my view, but it is not others'.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? (how shall we be saved) for clarification.


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You HAVE to be baptized in water....it shows our deat burial and resurrection with Jesus and the putting off of the old man and walking in newness of life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

If you only accept Jesus and figure that's it you are wrong the water symbolises the above...we become ambassadors and when filled with Jesus we become His ambassodors and representatives on the earth and
we are given power to do those things which He did and more shall we do.

Mark made it quite clear...if you believe on Jesus...if you believe the disciples report then you MUST be baptised anything else is a wrong path to God.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.