JFJ Forums

ShalominMessiah,
Thank you for your response. I suppose you are Jewish? I'm gentile. Maybe this explains already a lot. I was not claiming that believing Jews are forbidden to keep Torah laws. But I do search for the right attitude towards the Torah. Now I think Paul teaches that the Law/Torah, though holy and good and righteous, was a 'master' and yoke (a ministry of death and condemnation), of which we should be delivered, we were 'slaves' under the Torah: for now under the New Covenant we are not under the Law, but under grace, we became sons, with a freedom to love through faith.  The demands under the Old Covenant have no rights over those who live under the New Covenant, because the son (the Son, and we in Him) is dead to the law.
So, one can keep Sabattical laws, but for what purpose, if you are dead to the sabbattical laws? They don't have any say/jurisdiction over your life.




Jesus observed the Torah because He lived and died under the Torah. He did so untill He died; after that the obligations of the Torah were not binding for Him anymore.
It is, nor was ever "bad" to keep Torah law; I'm not saying that. The Torah is good and holy: God's Torah, but who can live under this Torah? Do we not all fall under judgement with His deathpenalty?
Jesus freed us from that judgement of the Torah: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom.8:1




No problem at all; I hope my understanding is not to offending; if you don't agree, that is OK with me. God's time for everything, for you and me.

Shalom, Aad2.
First of all, I do not get easily offended.  Secondly, I am Jewish in spirit but I was born Gentile also.  Again, I get and assume you are speaking more of LEGALISM?  Unfortunately poor biblical translations have mixed Torah and Legalism into one big meaning which is clearly not true.

My point was, if the Torah was "dead", then it would have died with Y'shua on the cross; which clearly it did not; because He still lives. The LEGALISM is no more. The Torah is our very foundation by which we are saved.  The Sabbath?  It was never changed or done away with by Christ.  He was Torah observant because he WAS TORAH.  He summed up the Torah into two commands  1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul   2)  Love your neighbor as yourself.   Now, if you truly know any Jewish people whether Orthodox or Messianic, you would know that they hold true to these two commands.   They live DAILY to please G-D.  All and everything that they do is focused around HIM.  They spend hours upon hours sometimes into the late nights studying HIS word.  How many of us Gentiles do that?  I'm sure there are some but in reality, maybe not a whole lot.

When they pray, they pray for their neighbors; meaning, they for example, might pray for something to eat...for perhaps a neighbor is hungry.  When they pray, they always think of others when doing so.  That was the second command of Y'shua.  If anyone knows Paul, they do.  But I have a Jewish friend who once told me, if you Gentiles knew the REAL Paul, you would not be able to handle him.  He was outspoken, an in your face kind of guy, no nonsense, etc.  That's why he was such a valuable piece of the puzzle.  Y'shua did not send Paul out to tell the world that Torah was dead.  When Paul referred to "law", it meant many different things and any Jew will tell you that.  He was speaking the Roman empire and speaking of the condemnation that Rome had for the Jewish nation.  Paul was of course referring to Christ, yes, I agree, but he was also speaking of the law of SIN and DEATH; not the law of G-D.

Also, if you say that the Sabbatical laws are dead, then perhaps the other nine are too....???  If we love the Lord our G-D with all our HEART, MIND and SOUL, our desires will not be that of the heathen but that of G-D.  Why do some Gentiles make such a big deal about obersving Sabbath?  Is even that too much for G-D to ask of us?  Maybe He doesn't ask it of us....but I'm sure he recongizes when we desire to do it.

I'm not saying darned if you do and darned if you don't.  But G-D will plant that desire is some (Jew or Gentile)  Do you HAVE to?  No.  Do you HAVE to feed the hungry?  No.  Do you HAVE to be nice and love others?  No.  It's all about heart.  Blessings, my friend.
P.S., by the look of your photo under your user name would I be correct in thinking you might be Catholic?

Shalom in Messiah wrote:
"He (Jesus) summed up the Torah into two commands  1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul   2)  Love your neighbor as yourself.   Now, if you truly know any Jewish people whether Orthodox or Messianic, you would know that they hold true to these two commands.   They live DAILY to please G-D.  All and everything that they do is focused around HIM.  They spend hours upon hours sometimes into the late nights studying HIS word.  How many of us Gentiles do that?  I'm sure there are some but in reality, maybe not a whole lot.

---------------------------------------------------

Hi Shalom in Messiah.
In your opinion, then, do the Orthodox Jews you refer to have any need for God's Messiah - Jesus?  
Thanks.

Greetings, Rebecca01.
I don't feel that my opinion is what matters most.  What matters most is truth.  I could go on and on with my "opinion" but you know what they say about opinions..... (wink wink).  To give you answer in short and only a short "opinion" is...I believe that all need Messiah; I also believe that G-D is the ONLY one who decides mercy (Romans 9:15) for each and every one of us.   Blessings!

[b]I know that the dietary law has no weight on salvation, but I do know that God has purpose behind everything that He established.  So if He said don't eat pork, it is for a reason.  [/quote] [/b]  
    
     Well, my scripture about the eating of pork is in the book of Acts. Peter was telling his testimony. When that vision came from Heaven it had on it every type of unclean beast. God told the man "Do not call that which I have cleansed unclean." I believe this has spiritual significance to it more, but it is also speaking in the physical. Peter was a man who lived his entire life as a devoted Jew following the law. These types of animals never touched his lips. That's why it was so hard for him to accept it when God spoke that to him. Whether or not you choose to eat pork is between you and the Lord, but these verses make it very clear that if you want to try a piece of the meat it is okay. You are not sinning because you do that.

   I agree with you that there is a reason God told them to eat this way. I believe that God gave this diet to us because He knows that it is the healthiest way to eat. People are always trying to determine what is healthy and what diets they should follow. God spelled it out in great detail right here in the scriptures! You have to understand that it's not wrong to eat those foods that are not Kosher though. God is a very practical God. He put that there for our benefit, but it's not a sin to not follow it perfectly. I believe that there is also a reason for Him giving this command to Peter to eat this meat. We don't need to strive and go into bondage over how we eat. It's not about following a list of rules. You even said that you understand that it has nothing to do with our salvation. That's good that you have that understanding. If you choose to do it just because it's what you are used to doing that is okay, but you should not feel obligated to do it. Definitely do not feel condemned if you don't follow that list of rules. You should also filter out what in that Kosher diet is Biblical and what is not even in the Scriptures. If it's not scripture you definitely don't have to do it. I think that's the main thing. God does not want this issue of food to be a thing that would cause you to have a guilty conscience. If eating nonKosher causes you to feel condemned and like you disapointed God then you know something is not right.

   I also think that you can find a nice balance. I don't eat Kosher at all, but I don't eat a lot of pork. A little bit once in a while won't make me unhealthy. I'm a gentile Christian raised like a gentile, and I always eat everything nonKosher, but I still don't like pork. Ya know why? The fattiness grosses me out so much. That's why I see logic in God telling us that it's not good to eat it. I would never be so extreme though to say that it is disobedience to God to eat pork. It's just wisdom to eat it in moderation.

D,
  
   Listening to your seeking heart is very encouraging to me. Can I tell you what I have been taught in my own times of confusion and struggles? The ONLY thing that matters to Christ is that He may have a deep relationship with you. John 17:3 "This is life eternal that we may KNOW Him the one true God." Stay focused on the prize, and don't let these other issues pull you away from that one thing that He values the most. He cherishes every moment that you spend with Him in your prayer closet. He wants to speak to you through His Holy Spirit. He wants to be your teacher and your counsellor. Every question you have-- every doubt and confusion- He wants you to bring these things to His feet and seek His answers. Every person will have their own opinions, and half of the time that will bring more confusion! Just take EVERTHING to Him in prayer and see Him work miracles. He will give you answers and bring clarity. The Bible says that "God is not the author of confusion." If you spend that time alone with Him He will give you His heart and not man's ideas. That is such a vital part of seeing His healing in your heart and restoration. My pastor said to me, "The reason so many Christians stay in the church for 20-30 years and never see deliverances take place in their hearts is because they don't spend time in His presence." I think it's in Corinthians it says "Beholding Him as in a mirror, we are changed into His image." Behold Him. Spend time in His presence. That's all He really cares about. That's what He died for! As you do that every other detail about whether or not you need to eat Kosher and how much of your traditions you need to follow will fall into place, by the leading of the Holy Spirit speaking to you and telling you what is pleasing to God.

   "Somethings that were taught to me, but hindered my growth in Christ as well as others."  


   Here's my question. If you know that it is hindering your growth in Christ why would you want to hold on to your traditions? Let nothing come between you and Christ! I learned that people can tell you many ideas and opinions, but if you let God speak to you about it no man (or woman) can persuade you of anything other than what He said.

[quote=dbethea]
"Can someone help me to sort all of this out.  I know that the Sabbath was the day that God set aside to rest, and that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.  I understand all of this, but my question is more so what is required of one on this Day (the Sabbath)?  What are the do's and don't concerning the Sabbath?  What is permissible to do and what is not permissible to do?  And I need scriptural references.  Please do not give me opinions... I need scriptural facts with references."


   Read the book of Hebrews in the New Covenant. It is very clear that Christ IS our Sabbath rest! (Hebrews Chapter 4) The symbolism in the Old Covenant command to keep the Sabbath Holy is amazing! This rest is a work that Christ does in our heart! It is not a literal day that must be observed. (4:10) This ceasing from works is not speaking of physical work either. It is once again pointing in the heart. God wants us to be at rest in our hearts.If you look in the book of Matthew you can see that Jesus is always rebuking the pharisees because they are so focused on the outward form of religiousness, and in their hearts they are wicked. "White washed sepuchures" were the words of Christ. Along with those thoughts, He points directly to the heart. He said "It is the things that come out of the mouth that defiles a man, not the things that go in the mouth." What are the things that come out of the mouth? "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Jesus is saying that it is what's in your heart that defiles you, not the outward WORKS of not fulfilling the law. Somewhere else in the Bible also says, "Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." God is focused on the work He can do in your heart, not whether or not you keep these traditions that you grew up with. The WORKS that ch 4:10 commands us to rest from are the works of trying to fulfill the law ourselves. Why is this so important to God that we do not try to fulfill the law ourselves outside of Christ? To do that is to say that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough and we need to add something of our own works to it. As Christians we know that Christ's sacrifice was enough. That is why we have to let Him make it real to our hearts that we do not need to do ANYTHING to please God!!!! He just IS pleased with us because our faith! It is "by faith, and not of works lest any man should boast." It's nothing we can do for ourselves. We just must enter into that rest of knowing by faith that Christ is enough. In our hearts we don't have to strive to please God and there is nothing that we can do to merit salvation. That's the place of rest He wants us to come to. Knowing that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation, and coming to that place of not striving to merit salvation. By faith!!!! It's all by faith! That's all over Hebrews ch 4. The children of Israel did not enter in because their unbelief. We must CHOOSE to believe God!

[quote=dbethea]
"Ripley, you stated in your post that the 4th commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy.  Six days shall thy do thy labor, but on the 7th day thou shall not do any work".  My emphasizes is on the word "work" for many reasons.  
     Is this a regular 9-to-5 type job, or is this cooking, cleaning, or preparing a meal for some one?  What is the true definition of this word "WORK""


     D,

   The number 7 means completion. The 7th day was the day of completion. The 7th day was the Sabbath rest. Let me paraphrase the verse above. "6 days shall thou work, but the day of completion is the day that you enter into the Sabbath rest." Your salvation is made whole and complete as you enter into the Sabbath rest of Christ. This is not necessarily refering to literal days, but rather the work in your heart that is represented by the number 7--completion and wholeness. Now the question here is not "What is work?" but rather "What is the Sabbath REST. I think that is where a lot of confusion comes in. People look at this and get so focused on what WORK is that they forget to see what REST is. In my previous post I explained the Sabbath rest the best way that I know how. My scripture reference is Hebrews chapter 4. Sabbath rest is entering into that place in Christ where you are fully confident that His sacrifice is enough, and there are no works that you can add to His finished work on the cross. "It is by faith and not of works." It is entering into that place in your heart where you realize that you do not have to do anything to merit salvation. It's much deeper than just having that head knowledge. Christ works it into your heart that you can rest and not stress yourself over whether or not you are pleasing to Him. You just know by faith that He is pleased with you.
     Please read my previous post. I think I explained it much better in that one, because I had more time to put into it. PLEASE read it and let me know what you think about this. Read the scriptures too. That is the most sure way to find answers! I am praying for you that God would reveal His truths to you exactly the way HE wants you to see them. Not the way I have in mind for you, or anyone else, or even your own preconceived ideas. I want you to learn His heart and His truth!

D,

   This is a beautiful testimony. I KNOW from what you said here that you are making the right decision to allow God to work in your heart and draw you closer to His heart. My pastor always said "The dealings of God are the healings of God!" Don't be afraid of the pain, D. Don't be afraid to step out in faith. I understand very well. This past year was the most painful year in my entire life, but the pain won't last forever. When you know the peace of Christ that comes with allowing Him to take those burdens, and when you see the healing that takes place in your heart, when you enter into the true Sabbath rest, IT IS WORTH IT!!
It is worth ANYTHING to know His heart the way that you will see Him when this work is complete. Knowing His heart is worth every sacrifice and pain!!! Trust Him in everything! One more thing. NEVER doubt His love for you. No matter what circumstances seem to shout out to you, be convinced that He still loves you, and He is ALWAYS faithful. His name is Faithful, and He can be nothing else but that! When I read your first post that started this thread, God immediately said to me, "Pray for Him." As I continued to read further posts, He showed me His heart for you. He is pleased with you, D. He is so pleased that you are choosing to allow Him to heal your heart and bring you into that deeper place of knowing Him. That is His one passion to know His people and that they would know His heart, and you are giving Him that most precious gift. What does your wife think about this decision that you made? Maybe she has some wisdom and insight for you. Be encouraged my brother in Christ.