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Ok, here's the deal... our new pastor has been giving this entire series of messages on ...err...in my words, helping the poor. Ok, I'm not going to get into how much it smacks of a social gospel (see David Brickner's recent article in the JFJ newsletter), but my question is this:

Wasn't almsgiving to the poor in the Old Testament specifically helping those already within the Jewish family of the faith? I cannot see the "poor" being the heathen nations. In the New Testament, I still do not see the poor who are being helped as those outside the faith, be that the Jewish/Messianic community, or the converted-gentile community of believers.

So it is bugging me when I hear people wanting to give to the poor and this and that, but they are not giving the gospel too. And it bugs me when people within the church may not be getting all they need, when they are in true need. Ok, sorry, I strayed into that evangelism thing again.

So give me some scriptures to demonstrate almsgiving being for anyone or just those in the "family" in need. Truly, the poor-poor we will have with us forever, unless, of course, Obama gets his way. Ok, sorry again for that one last jab.

Greetings Chow Woman!

Yes, the gospel should be shared with the poor (and everyone else).  But at the same time, they have special needs that should be helped by the more fortunate ones.  
As my last verse below states, our Lord came to us in a way that could have been perceived as, “poor.”  Yet, He is the King of Kings.  Also, the scriptures states that, “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” (Hbr. 13:2)  Can a stranger such as this appear poor to you?  I’m sure they can appear to you as someone that is poor.  How would you feel if you found out after this life that, that stranger was an angel and you did not offer your aid?

For those that have the means, I believe that helping the poor is more of a heart condition.  If your heart is right before God, you have compassion on those less fortunate.  Just as God has His compassion for us.  We can never match His love, for it’s so pure that we cannot comprehend its depths.  Yet, we should try to be more like Him.  

And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. (Zec. 7:10 KJV)
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. (Mat. 19:21)
But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: (Luk. 14:13)
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cr. 8:9)

Shalom Chow_woman,

Ruth 2:10-15 might help: David's Great-grandmother, Gentile, allowed to glean the field, and poor, and beautiful (OK, that helps a bit), allowed to have food, and further invited to dine with Boaz and his family.  

When the Bible mentions 'poor,' I know of no place where it says 'of the faith,' nor 'of your country.'  Presumption:  (spooky, huh?) If God doesn't exclude, neither should we.  (I wont go into the 'adding to, part.'  Ha)

Yes, we will have the poor with us, but not forever.  During this time, before the eighth eternal day, we are supposed to 'help,' the poor.  Some try to blackmail 'givers' into giving more by trying to convince us that we must 'adopt, support,' and take total fiscal responsibility, so the 'poor' has as much as the giver.  W R O N G !  Perchance, this pressure is what you disagree with?

Give what you can, when you feel the help will help, but, not because someone tries placing a guilt trip on your hear.  However, giving to the poor, in the proper format, like Church group, 'is' Evangelizing.  A hungry person will usually remember why someone gave them help, if it is obvious, but not jammed down their throat, nor takes away their dignity.

In Messiah, His Shalom, and generosity.  Arley

Thanks for the reply, James, but still in your scripture use, remembering the cultural context, I do not see that giving to the poor in Biblical times was to those outside the family of faith. Do you have any historic context?

(In Zec 7:10, Deut 14 and else where where the word "stranger" or foreigner is used, it is usually referring to a person traveling through Israel.)

Different of my rabbi's also told me to give outside of the ''Jewish family'' also for ways of peace, but you also should be a mensch.

In Judaism you take first care of your own family, than poor of your own city, later to Jerusalem, later maybe to other causes. You should give between 10 till 20 percent. More is not wise, otherwise at a certain point we only have poor people maybe (partly because not everybody knows how to deal with money).

Besides that, a lot of Christians forget that this 10% ruling is ''being under the law (as I like to be). But they mainly forget that during this law was instituted we had a temple, and over 10% of the people had the job of being a priest, and working for The Almighty and For the People.
Meaning, I hardly hear Christian Preachers telling after ''....blablabla give your 10%.....blablabla'': ''oh yeah by the way, that means that from now on, I pay 10% of the community to take care of others, and social things etc.''

Meaning: For a Large part, taking care of the poor should be organized via a main body. Of course it's good to give yourselves some poor people some food (often better then giving money). And even the good sameritan didn't start to tell his Sameritan kind of believesystem to the person, in Jesus story. So why should you always say why you do it.
Amalek was banned by God for not giving the Jews water in the dessert. But there is also no stories of Dessert-Tribes that gave the Jews some water of visa-versa that they had to become Jewish or something else to help eachother...

So I hope you have something about this writings, greetings

Navy Blue, Shalom matey!


Ruth had already joined up with Naomi and was on the way to conversion, so *buzzer sound* she doesn't count! *L* And I haven't been under "pressure" to give, but maybe I'm getting tired of all the socialistic philosophy. *shrugs*

Shalom Yetzirah!


I agree that the 10% ruling is under the law! The New Testament teaches giving out of your abundance. In fact, I've always heard that under Temple times it was more like 30% that people gave when you factor in all the sheep, cows, etc., that they had to sacrifice.

Thanks!

My personal feeling is that we can give to anyone we choose, but chow, I do feel that they need to know it comes from the abundance *God* (specifically, of the Bible, not some esoteric "Higher Power") has given us.

Also, I am not sure what kind of giving this pastor is talking about, personally giving to individuals, or charities, or generic NPFs/NGOs.

I sure don't see giving to "just anyone" as being a good steward with His money/talent/time/property that He has bestowed us with.

And I also feel that it really goes beyond gifts, but purchases as well. (For example, buying oil from Islamic countries that are out to destroy His Beloved...or Communist China that forces abortion, etc.) Not saying I don't buy gas....I do. And I buy things from China too...but it sure BUGS ME!! (Dare I say "convicts"?)




I am too. Especially when it comes to taxing us all to put into programs that are 1) less effective than true charities, but great at building bureaucracies!, 2) forward anti-Biblical policies ("tolerance for all things evil", fatherless homes, Planned Parenthood, etc), and 3) foster an "entitlement" attitude rather than a gratitude attitude (not to the people giving, but to God above), that enslaves people rather than helps them.

The "poor" here are characterized by those being in lower income housing/projects/neighborhoods. IMO (feel free to call me calloused) people remain in certain income brackets because they make and continue to make and will continue to make POOR choices in life, be it having multiple children out of wedlock with no fathers in sight, consuming large quantities of drugs and alcohol, enabling family members who use large quantities of drugs and alcohol, etc. These patterns will NOT change by giving goods and friendly attitudes and helping hands. These patterns will ONLY EVER change when a life-transformation occurs through the receiving of the gospel and repentance of known sin. So if we go into these places, to the unchurched, they MUST respond by coming to church in the very least. We must give the gospel, not a handout, for CHANGE THAT LASTS.

OK, thar, chow_lady,

Let me blast this one oer your prow:  

(Mat 25:40 KJV)  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Maybe this will help a bit, especially, as you previously hinted, the '..of my brethren..' part.  I was in error, as being too general in my philosophy of 'giving.'   I still will not refuse giving to 'the children.'   Some adults, may well be added to my 'no way Jose' list. Ha!

Perchance we should trust Messiah, and play the: 'If it feels right, give,' and further: 'If it doesn't feel right, don't give,'  (Boy, I'm so wise, sometimes, I scare my witto-self). HA!

In Messiah, His Shalom, and jocular approach to mortality.  Arley

Likewise Arley!
Here's another in Rms I found: 12:13 "Contribute to the needs of the saints, pursue hospitality." A few verses down the passage adds: "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing this you will be heaping burning coals on his head. 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." I don't think anyone ever goes around passing out food to Moslems with this in mind! *L* And I don't mean that literally...that verse has a different contextual idea I'm pretty sure.

I just don't see the scriptures saying "Feed your enemy and thereby win him to eternal life"... I don't know, I'm still searching this one out.