JFJ Forums

DavidJ – I’m sorry I’ve misunderstood you.  Given that I’ve misunderstood you, were you just being argumentative or do you have some other explanation for post #11 where you emphasized the verse that says Melchizedek was “without father or mother”?

I really don’t understand why you are not interested in the Councils of the Early Church.  These Councils were and still are part of God’s plan for the Christian unity Jesus prayed for in John 17 that we see carried out in Acts 15.  Just as in Acts 15, the council meetings are held and guided by the Holy Spirit to understand scripture and strive for unity in the Body of Christ.  Paul did the same thing when he wrote letters to the various local churches.  The later councils that you don’t care about are the very same ones the Holy Spirit guided to help us understand things such as the Trinity, and fight off the various heresies in the early church.  You may not care about them but you are most definitely the recipient of the graces that God poured out through them.

(cont …)

(… cont)

JewPoet – I have been biblical with my explanations.  Have I not used scripture to show that Mary is the Mother of Jesus?  Have I not used scripture to show that Jesus is Immanuel – God with us?  Mary is the mother of Jesus – straight from scripture.  Jesus is Immanuel, God with us – straight from scripture.  Mary is the mother of Immanuel, God with us – straight from scripture.  What part of this is not from scripture?  What part of this is pagan?

No – Mary is not the mother of God the Father as I’ve already stated.  Mary is the mother of the human nature of Jesus, as I think we all agree.  Jesus is fully human AND fully divine.  We all agree on this too.  But are the divine and human natures of Jesus separable?  When God came to dwell with us, did his divinity cease and he visited us only in his humanity? Or is Mary, the mother of Jesus, also the mother of Immanuel, the incarnation of God?

Jesus, who perfectly fulfilled the Law, honored his mother, Elizabeth called her the mother of our Lord, and scripture tells us that all nations will call her blessed.  You may consider honoring Mary a “roman pagan” practice but is seems to me a very Jewish and very biblical practice.  And I don’t think Jesus considered the honoring of his mother a “roman pagan” act either.

Thank you for drawing attention to Gal 1:6-9.  The church in Galatia had fallen away from the authoritative, apostolic teaching they had received.  Non-authoritative “trouble-makers”, those outside the apostolic authority of the church, were preaching a different gospel.  You can see one of the intents of the letter is to correct the false teachings of the Judaisers.  Paul is affirming with them the apostolic and authoritative teachings from the Council of Jerusalem which, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed infallibly that circumcision of gentiles was unnecessary.  So yes, just as Paul exhorts the Galatians who fell victim to non-authoritative teaching, we too should always be wary of false teachers, especially ones who choose to ignore teachings from ecumenical councils of the Bride of Christ.

  No, you have not already stated that Mary was not the mother of God the Father!

Your playing pedantics!

We therefore are agreed that Mary is not the Mother of God The Father but she was the mother of Jesus.

David

I most certainly was not just being argumentative; I assued that you were deliberately avoiding answering my question in my post #13 which was designed to progress the discussion concerning my reference to Melchizedek, which you have still not addressed,  viz.....


I have never heard such nonsense. God's complet plan is revealed in The Bible and NOWHERE ELSE! To add to the Bible is sin!

There was nothing but conflict in all three councils and any 'unity' was 'conived and manipulated unity - and that is UNGODLY AND UNSCRIPTURAL; In any event Roman popes and most definately not in Gods plan.  Just one example of the conflict and disunity of the councils is demonstrated  in 449 when Emperor Theodosius II convened a council in Ephesus at which time, Dioscorus (patriarch of Alexandria and Eastern prelate who was deposed and excommunicated) attempted to excommunicate Pope Leo I, who referred to the gathering as the “Robber Synod.”  No, there is not one shred of truth that the councils of Ephesus were either in God's BIBLICAL plan or Unity!

David

Mary is the mother of Jesus, yes or no?

Then Mary is the mother of GOD? Yes or no?

So therefore Mary is GOD? Yes or no?

Only God can concieve a GOD. If this kind of logic you want.

Have you not read in the book of Luke that Yashuah said, " If Mashiakh was the SON of Dawid, how come Dawid said THE LORD says to my LORD...Was Ha Mashiakh the son of Dawid?  Yashuah already refuted the doctrine of the parenthood to a GOD. In the Scripture it always refer to as THE SON of MAN not THE SON OF A WOMAN...

So if Mary is the mother of GOD so therefore Mary is GOD...hows that?

That is pure blasphemy...Doctrine of the Roman pagans of Athena and cupid...Mary and the holy child! Very obvious...so therefore Doctrine of Deception!

DavidJ

I’m pretty sure I made it clear the Mary is not the mother of God the Father in post #8 where I stated that Mary did not exist before God.  And then again in post #10 where I said “Nowhere does scripture say God has a mother because God the Father doesn’t”.  Don’t know how much more clear I can be than this.

It was at this time you threw in the curve ball about Melchizedek.  I’m still waiting for you to explain how this has anything to do with the relationship between Mary and Jesus.  Melchizedek is a somewhat mysterious figure in scripture and there are various opinions on exactly who he is.  I believe the Jewish people understand him to be Shem, son of Noah.  Some Christians believe him to be an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ while others believe him to be an unknown person serving as a pre-figurement of Christ.  Hebrews leads one to believe the later because Jesus is described as a priest of the order of Melchizedek, the emphasis being on the eternal nature of both the kingship and priesthood of Jesus.  Whether “eternal” refers to the person of Melchizedek or the nature of his kingship and priesthood is debated.  If you know the answer to these questions with any certainty, I’m sure there are many theologians, both Christian and Jewish, who would be interested in your findings.

So it appears we are in agreement then.  Mary is not the mother of God the Father, but she is the mother of Jesus.  And we know from scripture that Jesus is Immanuel and that Mary is the mother of Immanuel (Is 7:14, Mt 1:23).  So we can say with absolute certainty, based on scripture alone, that Mary is the mother of “God with us”.  To agree to anything less than this is a denial of scripture and a denial of the human nature of Mary and the human and divine nature of Jesus.

Regarding God working through authoritative, spirit led councils, you said: “I have never heard such nonsense. God's complet plan is revealed in The Bible and NOWHERE ELSE! To add to the Bible is sin!”

Sounds like you are adamantly opposed to the idea that God’s plan for the Bride of Christ includes council meetings.  What do you make of the Council of Jerusalem then?  I’m glad the early church didn’t feel the same way you do because they would have rejected the book of Acts since it records such an event.  
But this is a diversion from this thread.  If you want, you can start another thread on whether the Council of Jerusalem was “nonsense” or if it indeed made infallible, authoritative, spirit led proclamations.  You should probably make this another one of your threads in the Roman Catholicism forum because it appears that this view is unique to Catholicism.  Could you also please provide a reference to the information you copied regarding the “Robber Synod” of 449 A.D  (not to be confused with the Council of Ephesus, 431 AD)?

An emphatic yes!



Mary is not the mother of God the Father.
Mary is the mother of God the Son.


This is not logic at all.  My wife is the mother of my children.  She is not my children.   Immanuel was conceived when the Holy Spirit shadowed over Mary.


You are right.  Any suggestion that Mary is divine is wrong.  Likewise, any denial that Mary is the mother of Immanuel is also wrong.

No, scripture does not say Mary was the mother of "Immanual". We know from scripture that Immanuel is "God with us" i.e., Jesus in His human form; proving beyond doubt that Mary was the mother of 'God with us' - Jesus in His human nature,  not the triune Godhead, not God the Father and not God Holy Spirit.

David

Amen.I have great respect that the Pope has stood against abortion, and homosexuality. We are all imperfect, only forgiven. The ones who believe they have all the answers we should beware. How do you feel about the Virgin Mary? Does she have the power of redemption? I believe she was the mother[ Blesed of G-d;Virgin, Alma; Betulah][ the translated word still carries the same meaning!]Mary carried the new covenant of G-d ; Yehoshua within her womb as Sarah did Isaac . But only Jesus has the redemptive gift to bring the G-d of Israels forgiveness unto His people! I know many spirit filled Catholics , and there is only One G-d, one way , One word, and that is through His Son Yeshua;Jesus; Micah5:2. I don't understand how so many denominations ; Judaic ,Hebrew , and Christian can be so divided on the same G-d?

Now Mary is the mother of GOD the SON? How do you analize what Yashuah said about in the book of Luke.

Mary is the mother of Jesus but she is not the mother of God the SON.

Jesus always said about his father in heaven but you could not read in the Bible about him referring to hs mother at all...have we not read in the Bible that his mother and brother are those who listens to his voice?