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Think of it this way, with Luther, it is bad, but not as bad as you think.

Nazis used Luther's writings to try to justify what they did, but then again they misconstrued God to try to use God him self to justify what they did.

Church Historian Roland Bainton from Yale who my mom had classes from says he wished Luther had died before you went wild with his anti judaism rant.

I wish too cause up till then he was  great precurser to messianic judaism we have today.

Did you read my post Chad

He wrote when he was healthy that the Messianic kind of groups that started to do their own kind of kashrut, or celebrated on saterday, that they where Judaisers, and should be burned down....

I'm sorry, but most to Jewish Messianics might have been killed by Luther if he was the main prosecuter... who knows. But the Katholics did it for him.

So If Luther died before he became more anti-semitic than in his young years, some Jews that he might have attracted might have now been nice protestants, instead of messianics... I think.

Yes, and we have great men of God today that stumble and fall in various ways, and become reson to doubt the validity of the gospel by those who wish to level accusations against Christ via his, still sinful, followers.

Which is why *we* must not place our faith in men, but look to the only One Who is Perfection, and will never falter/fail us: Jesus.

And why we should REMEMBER to pray fervently for our "leaders" that they don't succomb to the temptations of their flesh (pride, greed, sexual pleasure, etc), and become reason/excuse to blaspheme our LORD.

And to keep a close eye on OURSELVES. We represent Jesus to others also. Stumble tens or stumble thousands, same thing.

As I said before, his contributions were GREAT...but they don't excuse these (other) views.

Ripleys-

Fine distinctions are needed here and I don't know if I can make it simple.

Luther was responsible for only a small part of the history of antisemitism.

If you want to say he laid the foudation for Hitler I think you are overstateing the facts.

Yezeriah-I don't know what you are talking about in the earlier writings of Luther that are supposed to be anti rabbinical or antisemitic.

Dubyah said this doesn't matter the subject of Luther.  But I think Messianics and Jews want Nonjews to grapple with all this.

Nazi's are wrong for laying the credit for Hitler at Luther's feet if the do that or if you do that.

Luther was anti Rabbinism not anti Jewish.  He wanted them to have salvation.

To be honest I went all the way through seminary and never heard about Luther as antisemitic so it was a shock when it came up.

The key here is to understand him in the context of Medieval antisemitism.

Maybe he was getting alzheimers.

The lesson for us is don't give up on the chosen people as luther did who cursed them then was dead in 3 years.

Be patient and enjoy your witnessing and don't get frustrated even if nobody gets saved.

I didn't say he laid the way for Nazis, although they did use his writings, just like they used Eugenics, and Muslims, it forwarded their cause, they used it, but they certainly weren't Christians. They were "Hitlereans."

I said he was anti-Semitic. Chad, he did not stick with theological discussions and refutations, he went further into violent dehumization mode.

You read it for yourself. And understand that he was a man of great POLITICAL power as well as THEOLOGICAL. He was THE role model. He set the tone. And the tone was not one of outreach in his last days. It was vitriol.

Luther writings:

1514- Conversion of the Jews will be the work of God alone operating from within, and not of man working — or rather playing — from without. If these offences be taken away, worse will follow. For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction.

1519- "Absurd theologians defend hatred for the Jews. ... What Jew would consent to enter our ranks when he sees the cruelty and enmity we wreak on them—that in our behavior towards them we less resemble Christians than beasts?"

1523- If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either.

-cont-

-cont-

A few years later, in 1528, Luther reported an epic bout of diarrhea brought on by his consumption of Kosher food. In a letter to Melancthon, Luther suggested that the Jewish community had attempted to poison him.

In August 1536 Luther's prince, Elector of Saxony John Frederick, issued a mandate that prohibited Jews from inhabiting, engaging in business in, or passing through his realm. An Alsatian shtadlan, Rabbi Josel of Rosheim, asked a reformer Wolfgang Capito to approach Luther in order to obtain an audience with the prince, but Luther refused every intercession. [22] In response to Josel, Luther referred to his unsuccessful attempts to convert the Jews: "... I would willingly do my best for your people but I will not contribute to your [Jewish] obstinacy by my own kind actions. You must find another intermediary with my good lord."

Paul Johnson writes that "Luther was not content with verbal abuse. Even before he wrote his anti-Semitic pamphlet, he got Jews expelled from Saxony in 1537, and in the 1540s he drove them from many German towns; he tried unsuccessfully to get the elector to expel them from Brandenburg in 1543."

1543- "The Jews and Their Lies" -I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them.

In conclusion, he wrote:

There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses — namely, that God has struck [the Jews] with 'madness and blindness and confusion of mind.' So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite all their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property. In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they daily pray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!

-cont-

-cont-

Luther advocated an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews either by religious conversion or by expulsion:

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."

"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."

"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."

"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."

"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."

"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

SOURCE FOR ALL QUOTES

Chad, that goes a bit beyond theological differences...and refutations.
IT IS PERSECUTION. AND IT IS *SIN*. Christians are not called to persecute, we are called to proclaim the Good News of Messiah. And if not accepted, to shake the dust off of our sandals and move on. The above, despite all his good works, is STILL vulgar anathema.

What's different from what he wrote and what the RCC had been doing for centuries?

What do you think Paul would have said to Luther in light of Romans?

Hey Chad,

What do you think of this article:

Israel's chief rabbinate severs Vatican ties
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090128/ap_o...P8NRRvaA8F


Interesting, huh?

I think it is a good thing. The Catholic Pope has always wanted Israel in the hands of false the Palestinians. He has always been behind this "tow State" solution nonsense. Israel does not need anything from the Vatican.

Perhaps, this will break all their ties with Rome for good.  Every one is too pragmatic. I'm a Protestant. I'm very out spoken against the Church of Rome. I'm very out spoken, period.

Danny

Two points that I want to make:

1. Many Jewish people, Christian or not, were or are Roman Catholic (as, for example, were my great-great-grandparents Julian and Alexandria Andrulewicz Czarniecki). Many gentiles are also Roman Catholic.
   
   
2. I'm for a two-state solution: 'Am-Yisra'el keeps what was originally and is 'Eretz-Yisra'el (including Gaza), and the Palestinians keep the rest of the Middle East.