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This is thread where anyone who holds to either baptism is needed for salvation or does who believe it does Not.



I will start John 3:5

1. I do not see this as christian baptism because One the Nt was not in effect yet and second the person Jesus was talking to was under The OT not Nt.


2. the other reason is from this site which I go to alot



the second common interpretation of this passage and the one that best fits the overall context, not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole, is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit” as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,” He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2,7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament (John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).


and the other reason why I do not see john 3:5 as  The christian baptism


e should also not lose sight of the fact that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?


http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html


waiting for other views I be glad to debate.

If it was because he was under the old covenant (which I know you disagree with that reasoning anyway, but I'm just adding to it), then he would be saved by faith through the old covenant. Which IF that is the case, I could also understand that because Abraham's faith accounted him as righteousness....so that even would prove that the new covenant would be based on the same standards (faith)..why add anything to it. Jesus was given to us for peace and rest. Once we accept him he is our peace, our rest through our faith. Well said.

Well, you know where I stand on the "necessity" of baptism, but I also disagree with the explanation from your site here:


Nicodemus answered Jesus' statement with "can a man go back into his mother's womb?" [paraphrase]

Jesus answered, "Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit. Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above! John 3:5-7 CJB

Jesus continues the "fleshly" birth thought, and contrasts that from the Spiritual: "born from water" parallels "born from the flesh is flesh", "and the Spirit" parallels "born from the Spirit is spirit".

I don't see Jesus as appealing to "ceremonial cleansing" in those verses.

However, His further explanation to Nicodemus also rules out the "necessity" of water baptism for regeneration: v 8- The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it's going. That's how it is with everyone who has been born from the Spirit."

"You hear/see the effects of the wind..." THAT is how it is for those who are obedient to be baptized: THE EFFECTS OF THE WIND/YIELDING FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT, not *US* BRINGING/ORDERING/DIRECTING the Wind/Breath of God/Pneuma Himself.

In other words, our rebirth results in obedience/faithfulness, not the other way around.

With that, I'll leave the discussion, sugarman. I have debated Oneness and Roman Catholics enough on this subject.

acts 2:38


This is what I think from my own view point.


1. it refering to jews Not gentles

2. it not universal andfor all ages but for a certain point of time.

3. The jews who said what should we do brothers? etc...

They Had The baptism of John and they trusted John was right about The coming messiah but they were not taken from the OT to The new messianic age The NT.

brothers to me supports they believe in The coming messiah so by this act of faith.

They felt bad about jesus having to Die etc... They knew he is The messiah and trusted that he was.

So paul told them acts 2:38 this was to bring them out of The OT and into the New.

The laying of hands was for people under the OT who were born under that law to  bring into the New.

People today are not born under the Ot but new so this statement of paul is just for those jews who he was talking to.


now an other reason is The greek there is debate about the word For.

Does scrpture support sins be forgiven after  baptism or before?

well if we take the case of acts 10 I think it makes it clear sense they believe the word as peter spoke The Hg fell on them.



anyone else view?

WHat's to debate...

Jesus said it...we do it....

Matt 28:19
Mark 16:16
Luke 3:21
John 4:2
Acts 2:38
Acts 2:41
Acts 8:12
Acts 8:16
Acts 8:36
Acts 8:38
Acts 8:18
Acts 10:47,48
Acts 16:15,33
Acts 19:3-5
Acts 22:16
Rom 6:3
1 Cor 1:14-16
Gal 3:27

Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of the future....and it came to pass for we are all baptised with the water and the Spirit.

Thief on the cross...Jesus who IS and WAS God used His Divine Right as King of Kings to grant the theif pardon and bring him into paradise.

The Future nice try but Jesus was not speaking in future context but talking about the need to be born again from The HG to be born again.




baptism it self is a noun it reflects on the verb which is The HG.

it the HG that saves a person at true belief and confession and they are baptism to show the reflection what the Hg did for them.

baptism is a command for obedience not for salvation.


baptism is result of one saving faith not the saving faith it self that saves.

Oh, so Jesus gave the theif on the cross grace before he died, went through terrible agony and pain for us (to be our Savior), but can't give his grace now? Make ALOT of sense.... some people will always make a work of man added to faith....

Eternal salvation is ALWAYS by God’s grace and his grace alone.  If he chooses eternal life for someone who is not baptized, that is his divine prerogative.  If he chooses eternal salvation for the infant or mentally disabled, despite their inability to have faith, it is his divine prerogative.  If he chooses to save a repentant thief on a cross, it is his divine prerogative.  But what does he ask of us?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (mk 16:16)

So we know with absolute certainty that salvation is granted to “he that believes AND is baptized”.  He that does not believe is in trouble.  He that believes and is not baptized?????  Why take the chance?  Why tell people it’s not necessary?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.  (Acts 2:38)  Why tell people baptism is not necessary?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5)  Why tell people baptism is not necessary?

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” – The Great Commision

“Don’t feel like you need to be baptized.  It’s just a symbolic public expression of faith.”  - The Great Ommission

Yes, always by grace I agree. Already, proved Mark 16:16 speaking of baptism by Spirit because it automatically happens and therfore it doesn't need to be addressed as to what happens to those who believe and are not "baptized"...can't happen if speaking spiritually; therefore, rules out "water baptism" because it would have been addressed. And taking chance? No, having faith that what God says is true. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9
And how clearly you put what John the Baptist said on the backburner...about how he baptizes in water, but He who comes will baptized with the Spirit.
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