JFJ Forums

HI everyone. I do post this with respect.

It is against jewish law to try to convert people to judaism.

Please let me repeat::

It is agains Jewish law to try to convert someone to Judaism.

J4J, in and of itself is fine. But when you try to convert people (JEWS) to J4J you are breaking jewish law.

That is why you NEVER see jews with pamphlets. Or staning on the corner preaching. Or talking about how great it is to be a jew.

NEVER.

So when J4j goes out and ACTIVLY tries to recruit people, they break Jewish law.

And I cant tell you how many posts I have read on this forum that talk about heaven and hell, and eternal damnation. That everyone must beleiev in Jesus, or we are goingto burn in hell, and we wont find eternal bliss.

>>>Hangs head<<<<

Jews do NOT believe in the CHRISTIAN belief of heaven and hell.

So I know people will come on here and start to quote scripture and tell me how wrong I am. Thats not going to help.

Jews do NOT beleiev in the NT, so you cant quote something that will sway me. You can quote all the NT you want, it wont work.

I dont understand why others feel they must go out and push their beliefs on others. I know you feel compeled becasue you dont want me to burn for all eternity.

I dont believe in hell, so its ok.

I know you think that I HAVE to believe in Jesus, and must be saved or I will never find my way to G-d.

Dont worry. Abraham made a covenant with G-d, so Im already covered. I dont need Jesus, I already have a covenant.

I know you KNOW jews HATE to be confronted with information about Jesus, but you do it anyway.

I also think its akin to praying to a false G-D. Why woud I *ever* say "in the name of Jesus, amen". Jesus is not G-d.

So I post this with THE upmost respect.

But you are breaking jewish law.

And again, I PROMISE. I dont care how much scripture you quote. Your quotes mean nothing. I dont need Jesus, I have a covenant already.

Think about my words before you try to convert someone else. Let them come to YOU if its what they seek.

Respectfully submitted,
JewG

"The wicked shall return to the nether-world, Even all the nations that forget God." -- Psalm 9:18*, The Holy Scriptures © 1917 By The Jewish Publication Society of America.

I tried to paste the verse in Hebrew, but the font would not copy.

Because of this, and other OT verses, (Deuteronomy 32:22 for example) Christians do not generally realize that Jews do not believe in hell.  In the KJV translation, the Hebrew word is translated "hell".

*(By the way, Psalm 9:18 in the Jewish Scriptures is the same verse as Psalm 9:17 in the KJV.)

JewG,
     You make several mistakes in your view.  Chabad does evangelize, sometimes with tracts, and world-wide.  But are they wrong to do so?  In terms of a written biblical viewpoint...no.

   In the 8th Century B.C.E., do we already have a Diaspora of Jews who live in the isles or coasts, and from far (Isaiah 49:1), to be gathered back to Israel?  We are given the very definition of evangelism  in the passage of Isaiah 49:1-6.  The Gentiles are told to listen, to prick the ear and hear intently...and then comes the testimony.  Israel is called to regather, in order that it might be given the mission to take up the mission to the end of the earth to be "salvation" or "Yeshua".  

You are called to be a light to the Gentiles to shine and evangelize, says the prophet.  Israel is called to be as one in eretz Israel, so that the work might begin.

Or are you one who reads that passage of Isaiah 46:1-6, then with a shriveled and mean (or uncircumcised)  heart, says ..."Hey, I got light of HASHEM's Torah, but we're forbidden to share it?"   When the tongues of fire rested on Israel's shoulders at Sinai, was not that same Torah thundered also throughout the Earth?  If this is so, then that one rabbinic tradition and teaching, coupled with Isaiah 49:1-6, trumps the negative command against evangelism.

Case in point: if it were not so, counter-missionaries like Tovia Singer  and Outreach Judaism would not try to reconvert Jews from Christianity, and with them, Gentiles to Judaism in preference to Christianity.

Where in the Written Torah is there the violation?  Where in the writings or the prophets?  Is it not a rabbinic tradition that alone forbids evangelical rabbis?  If so, what about those in Chabad who convert more than those who are physically 100% Jewish?

And to what year is that earliest rabbinic tradition of "no evangelism" dating to?  What is the chain of custody and precedent to support that non-evangelical viewpoint in rabbinic tradition?  

If the whole purpose of the Torah is to purify and unite humanity (Midrash - Tanhuma Shmini 65), then short of the Cross of Yeshua and evangelism, I'd like to see how you explain any sacrifice can do it.  

Without a hell, there is no need for sacrifice, and sin becomes a subjective relative...thereby making the very existence for a Passover or Yom Kippur, for Judaism, the Temple, and the State of Israel to be null and void. This stance is an abomination called "toeba".  "What is Toeba? Toeh ata ba, you are erring in this way." (Nedarim 51a)  

I say all this with absolutely no hostility, and declare that I am an ally and a supporting member of the Temple Institute, whose purpose is to one day rebuild the Temple.  So I am simply trying to show I believe your position is clearly wrong on the issues you raise.

Friend, you've reasoned yourself to a discarding of Jeremiah 31:36-37, and de facto,  G-D (with the Torah and all) as well.  After all, if the Torah says Korah and his household went down into hell (or its aspect), and you don't believe this of the Torah, what is the message that you are declaring even within Judaism?  

Quotes from JewG




You made your point, very clear. I agree that is the case. It is on the contrary: Judaism is reluctant to have converts.

J4J, as far as I know, is NOT Judaism, but (a form of) Christianity. And that means there is a great commission from God that says: preach to all creation, including Jews, in fact, first to all Jews.




This is very sad. What you say here is a caricature of Chistianity. To use prophetic language (heaven and hell, judgement) and make it into a dogmatic 'scheme of salvation' is bad Christianity.




Now you're a real Jew!




Of course 'we' don't want that, and surely God does not want that, and speaking for myself, I don't like this threatening with hell; it is an unchristian and pagan thing to do.




I don't think that. Faith in Jesus is a gift from God. One cannot be forced to believe in Jesus. God has promised that there will allways be 7000 believers (1King19:18; Rom.11) which is a "full number", a divine completeness. And I don't say, nor the Holy Scriptures, the rest is going to hell. The rest is Gods Problem, and I'm sure He, Who's Name is Full of Mercy, will solve that problem according to His Name.




I'm not worried. Your concern is with a certain, mainly evangelical kind of Christianity, that can and should be criticiced/corrected.




What Law? From the Oral Torah? Because the blessings of the covenant of Abraham were also meant for all the nations, were they not?

Aad

Shalom, Actually, it is agains Rabbinical Traditions to convert folks into Judaism. To tell you the truth. Rabbinical Judaism has been breaking torah right there. Torah demands that the Seed of Israel to be a light to the nations and share the Torah of Yihweh with others. J4J are obeying Torah by defying the traditions of men. The rabbi's are not G-d. Yihweh alone is G-d. For as the scriptures state: Sh'ma Yisrael Yihweh Eloheinu Yihweh 'echad. Hear oh Israel, the LORD our God the LORD alone.

We are to obey the Most High. There is a blessing if you obey the Torah of Yihweh and a curse if you dont. I will challenge you to break away from Rabbinical traditions and read the TaNaKH by yourself without a rabbi giving his interpretation.

Baruch HaShem.

And I might add, He that willingly breaks Torah (according to the Torah) will be cut off from among the people. He ceases to be an Israelite. He is to cast off. He is no longer is in the Covenant.

If Jesus was a Pharisee - ordained as a Rabbi by Pharisees - and did not keep any Rabbinic injunctions of that time (like lots of oral laws) - then he is guilty of breaking God's commandment in Deut 17:8-13, in following the Rabbis of that time.  He eventold his followers to do so as he said the Rabbis sat in Moses' seat and people were to DO as THEY said (see Matt. 23).  

So ironically, those here who put down Rabbinic traditions and decrees are not only failing to follow Jesus' command to DO as the Rabbis teach (being they sit in Moses' seat), but also fail to DO as Jesus did - or what Jesus HAD to do as per Deut 17:8-13.  

Oh the irony.

When was a matter too hard for Jesus to judge, and rule decisions over His disciples?  He blew Hillel away at age 12.

What particular matters would another rabbi or a priest have over one of the disciples of Yeshua?  If a chief disciple of Meir Kahane were to be approached by Rebbe Schneerson in 1985, what would Meir's disciple be obligated to do and heed in regard to the great Lubavitcher Rebbe?  

It appears to me, that you are boasting of concepts and things you still haven't yet delved and thought through yet.  If i am wrong...demonstrate.  Thanks.

I'm not arguing that Jesus had to follow any Rabbinic flavor of the day (Rabbi X or Y or Z).  But he was bound to follow Oral law mandated and legislated by the Sanhedrin of that day, just as any other Jew.  This is what Deut 17:8-13 speaks of and this is also what Jesus ordered his disciples and followers (like yourself) to do with respect to the Pharisees who sit in Moses' seat (Matt 23).  He was a hypocrite if he did not do as he commanded his followers to do (follow the Pharisees sitting in Moses' seat), and if he did follow them, isn't that ironic?  If he followed Channukah, wore tefillin, a yarmulke, and a tallis, knew how to carry out other oral laws that are difficult to decipher without oral law, then he did follow the precise Oral tradition you wish to minimize in importance.  

Chaim writes:
"But he [Jesus]  was bound to follow Oral law mandated and legislated by the Sanhedrin of that day, just as any other Jew."

Let's say that Jesus was bound to follow Oral law.  Whose?  

In Yeshua's day we have the House of Hillel and the House of Shammai.  The "Oral" Tradition states that when Israel was in peril, Hillel came up from Babylonia and "saved" Israel by inference...'when Israel forgot the Torah, Hillel came up from Babylonia and restored it unto her.'  Or words to this effect.

So if Israel FORGOT...and there were thousands of rabbis, priests, and scribes in Israel at the time, WHAT DID THEY FORGET?   Israel with its Temple forgot Torah!  

[Now's a good time for expletives and colorful methaphors].

There were arguments constantly as to the length of a Shabbat walk, for example.  Was it 9 miles, the length of the Wilderness encampment of Israel, or was it a distance 1/18th of that?  These are huge discrepencies of interpretation.  Huge.  So if Jesus / Yeshua came and revealed a more proper interpretation, since Israel FORGOT / LOST Torah, who are we to judge differently?  

After all, we only retain what ONE MAN, Judah ha-Nasi, SAYS was Oral Torah...and others who wrote their own recollections of the Oral Torah were violently suppressed.  One man...and did he depend on the Sanhedrin (also disciples of learning from their rabbis) of his day to aid him?  Or is the edited Oral Torah claimed only through just one of the several of the Sanhedrin that walked out to Titus in A.D. 70?  

So if, in Hillel's day, the House of Shammai was Galileean, and the Pharisees were the Judeans who seized upon Hillel, what was the Essene view or the views of other major sects or denominations of Israel at the time?  Why were they allowed to practice differently than the two major factions of the Sanhedrin...especially those we claim as Dead Sea Communities of Essenes? 

Obviously, there is sacrifice apart from the unclean Temple {cf. the words of the Dead Sea Scrolls as stating this}, where alone it is ruled by the standing Sanhedrin, that Jews must sacrifice only at Moriah.  Yet, their "Dead Sea" or "Essene" Pesach and Yom Kippur is sacrificed and observed separately.  And contrary to archaeology's claims, Essenes inhabited hundreds of towns throughout all Israel (cf. Josephus).  What if they sacrificed in hundreds of unwwalled towns at Pesach to HASHEM?
How does our modern Oral Torah oversee them?

In the days of the Two Kingdoms, Israel and Judah, we had Two temples and Two sets of daily and festive sacrifices.  We don't cut Israel off and say, "Ooops.  You're not Jews anymore.  You 'uns is pagan, now!"

And when the Pharisees sat in Moses seat, did he rule Oral Torah?  Or did he specifically deal with a "Written Torah" and a "clean" copy of that from Hillel's original that was then stored up in the Temple itself?  How Jews teach today and how they taught then, are two separate styles: and the former (if you reject Josephus' style in his "Antiquities") is lost to us.  

You accept an edited version and possible corruption of Oral Torah through Judah ha-nasi as if by selection without consequence.  The Gospels in contrast were written in the very presence of hostile enemies, and millions of eye and ear witnesses of Jesus, with the Temple still standing.  It endured a minimum of 13 more years in proclamation before the fall of Jerusalem...and not one clear discrepency is made even by the most hostile Judah ha-nasi...who himself, waited until the principal witnesses of Rabbi Akiva et al. died off.  This alone, is even an act Josephus fiercely condemns...even from his grave. 

You need to think your position through more, and beat on it.  If you do, you will see the similarities with your position against Yeshua, and Jeremiah 2:13.  Shalom.