Please forgive me but I am seeing so much that upsets me I just can hardly stand it and need some advice. I know Im to pray but when its so overwhelmingly doing in the wrong direction what can I do?
You'll never guess what happened yesterday. In our Baptist church the pastor had each Sunday school class leader come forward and give monies to the Annie Armstrong Missions and then with an overhead computer show the totals. I was horrified at how money has taken over. I felt for the University class because they are poor and only gave 40.00 and the rest of the classes gave 200-700 dollars each. And as the amounts where given a total was projected overhead. During a song to Jesus a man walked up onto the stage and gave the pastor the total. GOOD GOLLY SAKES ALIVE WHATS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCHES?
Thats not all we went to another Baptist church later that afternoon for closing ceremonies for the Upwards Basketball program, which is a very nice thing, and they had a man there who did a program in the SANCTUARY....JUGGLAR FOR JESUS! If that not bad enough, with all the space in the church for such a thing including the gym......he set up inside the sanctuary and then afterward if that wasnt shameful enough he then put up a table to sell his wares in the Sanctuary. I really really want out of this forsaken denomintation. My old pastor in the Baptist church would never do that!!!!
Am I being to hard? Why do I see this as bad? Why dont more people see whats happening to the churches? Im crushed, but not broken. My spiritual life is very strong. I love Jesus. What is happening, does anyone have an answer? God bless you.
I don't have an answer, but I know the Baptist denomination has historically been a sound one. I was raised in a Southern Baptist denom but shortly after being saved joined the independent Baptists to separate from some of the liberal doctrines that were coming into the SB at that time (60's and 70's timeframe). Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater is what I'm saying, I guess.
Non-essential doctrines may differ in some denoms, but there are still good Bible-believing churches around. And I see a lot of churches that are embracing techniques of the world to draw unbelievers into the church. I don't think the Bible has ever taught this. But from jugglers to rock music, there has been an invasion of that idea, as if liberalism wasn't bad enough.
Talk to your pastor and tell him how offensive this was to you--point blank if necessary, tell him how greedy it looked. With the economy the way it is, we may see churches going "out of business" because their priorities have been in the wrong place all along. This will be a good thing.
Pardon my ramblings! Shalom!
I appreciate your wisdom in this matter. I have been thinking and praying today about it and it has troubled me very much. I did contact the two pastors but Im not sure they will listen to a poor woman. I did try. I am currently relocated to allow my eldest child to attend a Baptist University and have been attending here locally. My Baptist pastor is not a main stream Baptist and he does not hold to all this new fangled stuff. Hes just a down to earth man who serves G*d with all his heart. He is a treasure, not perfect, but a blessing to his people. I hope G*d blesses him today. I miss that church very much and maybe will go back to it soon, if its G*ds will. It is not in Texas and I am quite concerned with the worldliness I have seen here in Texas. Pray for them and ask G*d to give a special blessing to my old pastor too.
While thinking about it I was impressed with the thought that people are sometimes unfaithful to their spouses and it all goes back to your relationship with G*d because if its strong and good then your marriage will be strong and good. It is my belief that people who are unfaithful to their spouses are not capable of being faithful to G*d.
Pearl: IF YOU ARE UNFAITHFUL TO A SPOUSE THAT YOU CAN SEE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THEN TO BE FAITHFUL TO A G*D YOU CANNOT SEE.
And as I was thinking about this I suddenly realized that if our church leaders are not respecting and reverencing a Holy G*ds Temple then its no wonder they are allowing homosexuality to come into the hearts and minds of their sheep by condoning sin in our lives and because they are not teaching Holiness of G*ds temple the church they would then not bother to teach Holiness of G*ds temple our bodies!
Pearl: IF WE TEACH HOLINESS AND REVERENCE OF G*DS HOUSE THEN WE WILL AUTOMATICALLY TEACH HOW TO AVOID REAPING THE WHIRLWINDS OF SIN IN OUR LIVES.
Thank you for listening to an old woman. Just know I can share this kind of stuff with you because you will understand. Thank you very much. G*d bless you.
Maybe this is why Christian worship (and Jewish worship), until recently at least, has always been liturgical in nature. Here is one of the earliest descriptions of Christian worship:
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. (Justin Martyr, First Apology, c. 150 A.D.)
The Liturgy consisted of reading of scripture, a homily/sermon, prayers of the faithful, and then the offering of prayer and thanksgiving (“todah”/”eucharistae”) through the celebration of communion.
HOPE7~
If God is calling you out of that church He will lead you to a new "home"...but I wouldn't leave without telling the pastor why. Not to be snippy, or self-righteous, but to tell him that he is leaving the word...if pastors stick with the word, and rightly divide...and SLEEP to their desires...GOD PROVIDES WHAT *HE* WANTS the church to have. (Which isn't always what *we* want.)
wk~
Until "recently" the liturgy was in Latin, too. Should you return to that?
Too many planks and not enough splinters?
Maybe too many splinters?
Why don't you tell us? and,
If you got a problem,
don't care what it is,
if you need a hand,
I can assure you this..... we can help.
It's sad that people get lonely,
ain't nothing new,
but a denomination like the baptist,
should never have,
poor attendence....... ah, da da da da dum de de dum......
Ask not what your church can do for you....
yep.
The point is not in the language used for worship but in it’s form. Antics such as “Juggling for Jesus”, merchandizing, and presentation of financial reports have no place in Liturgical worship.
The word “Liturgy” means “work of the people”. In this sense, the people become participants rather than observers. It becomes more of a “what can I put into it” rather than “what can I get out of it”. Emphasis becomes less on the praise and worship band or charismatic preaching (or juggling) and more on scripture, communal prayer, and in the Lord’s Supper. I believe receiving the Word in the form of scripture and communion should take precedent over a long-winded sermon.
You can see this in Justin Martyrs Apology. The reading of scripture (Liturgy of the Word) and the celebration of communion (Liturgy of the Eucharist) were the two major portions of the liturgy. This is the same format that nearly all Christian liturgical celebrations follow and it has been so since at least the early 100’s (most likely earlier).
This should be no surprise for those familiar with the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. Jewish liturgical worship was what took place in the temples and synagogues (and still takes place today) and that would certainly have carried over into the “Acts 2” Church. Christian liturgical worship has it’s roots straight from Judaism.
And Ripleys, historically, not all liturgical celebrations were in Latin. This was only in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. Greek and many other languages have been used in other Catholic Rites (such as Byzantine, Alexandrian, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, Chaldean, etc.). I definitely see value in a common universal language for worship (e.g. Latin) – I love that I can visit another country without language being a barrier to communal worship. But yes, I do prefer English.
HOPE7, I suggest you join a Pentecostal church.
Evangelical Bailout Plan
Ya'll might find this article interesting. Can anyone hazard a guess who the "Brian" is in the article. I recognize the others by their first name.
To Hope7-
I notice you are a nurse. If you talk to the Pastor directly it might not do any good. A long term plan to get the pastor less type A might be the only thing to work.
So, dealing with his extream church growth orientation you could figure out a way to get him to go to a seminar on stress or heart disease or something on spiritual disciplines contemplate, a Richard Foster Quaker type thing?
It is strange to have a juggler selling stuff in the santuary. But the same old advise from 1 Peter 3:10 and Proverbs 25 applies to settle without bringing in third parties, it is like grabbing a dog by the ears.
Thank God this is pretty much annonymous.
But this is a mars and venus thing too. I hear, and understand you might not actually want to change it just express how you feel.