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Is bearing a grudge the same as unforgiveness?

Wouldn't bringing the prescribed offering and still having your conscience bound by a grudge make the offering less than satisfactory, even in your own eyes, as well as God's?

I have a friend that needed forgiveness, yet the one He offended did not offer it, because he held a grudge. Now... the offended one actually believes He is the one that needs forgiveness for not forgiving!

There is a true faith and hope in the one that witheld the forgiveness that was needed at that specific time, that one day He will be able to stand before the Lord unashamed with the brother that offended him,  accepting the forgiveness that only Christ can give, and found only within the heart of God.

Praise the Lord.

Does the 'giving' of forgiveness have an expiration date?  Must the offender request forgiveness?  Must the offended confront and 'offer' forgiveness, even though not requested?  Sheesh!  All sorts of questions are popping into my vacuum chamber.

Shabbat Shalom, 2COR517.

It is interesting how the 'offended,' has assumed the role of sinner, in need of forgiveness, and is correct in the assumption.

I have a counter question, which may help:  If an 'offended' forgives the 'offender,' is the offended required to approach the offender and proclaim the act of forgiveness, to make the forgiveness complete?

I cannot find anything about completeness, but I believe the offender need desire forgiveness, before it is complete.  My example might be the thief that challenged Jesus, while on the cross.  If forgiveness can be given without request, then, perhaps, both thieves were saved that day?
I think not.

Who ever the offended is, he/she must forgive in their heart, so that, one day, the offender can request forgiveness, only to find out that it had been given long before.

I fear, I may be complicating an easy answer, so will close mouth, and pray the right answer comes to your friend.

In Messiah, His Shalom, and righteousness.  Arley

I agree with you Cor.

Who ever the offended is, he/she must forgive in their heart, so that, one day, the offender can request forgiveness, only to find out that it had been given long before.

AMEN.






Hi Arly,

Your angle sounds almost so good... and I think expiration date is immaterial to God as far as his comfort goes. As far as my comfort;
Y'shua it was I think said to go to the one that did the "bad", if demographically possible and make peace!   Therefore it should not be THAT interesting - for the sake of the person that has the "aught" now is no longer under bondage to unforgiveness. (If successful truthful desire for a real friend is desired.)

He has fully let the issue rest by acknowledging it warranted his admission that He felt the offense was uncalled for (yep, a sin! Oh My!), yet has decided to forgive and forget according to the best of the abilities God in Christ has provided.

I keep thinking of the nations God used to chastise Israel, and the
true notion that two wrongs never make a right.

That said- settling accounts with God is necessary, even if the monthly statement is 49 pages long with 490 transactions! (Accepting forgiveness for individual sins from Y'shua, THEN translated horizontally to the BRETHREN who offends YOU!) . This for the sake of the offenders and the one offended's debits and credits in God's economy, (horizontal reconciliation) he recommended the actual release of the offender from the condemnation of the offended , as in the person of Christ there is no condemnation to be found.

So in the interest of personal comfort, I , and my friend as a believer are now resting in the fact there were (as far as offender and the one offended) no logos reasons for any retaliation; then mutually enjoining a silent parting of ways, which in most cases is albeit impersonal, but yet considered a bridge repaired for the sake of Christ by the unspoken words of each's heart, of which God himself alone is certain, and also in some situations the best that a breech can possibly be repaired.

Shalom my brother!

By God we Jews where commanded not to forgive Amelek.
So what did it ment for the future, that we are allowed to Hate them, and remind it. But having a grudge often eats yourself up inside. So hatred is practicall, not something that's needed to be felt all the time, so that it keeps you angry and busy...

So It's hard to find out with all kind of other commandments what to do nowadays.

personally I believe that:
I don't have to forgive the (bad-person-)Germans for what they did (off course there are good or helpless Germans also).
I don't have to forgive the Japanese for what they did to all kind of P.O.W.'s.
I don't have to forgive the Americans for what they caused in Indonesia.
I don't have to forgive a lot of Nations, that even didn't ask for forgiveness.

But having, or being bound by a Grudge is something else.
I don't have to approach a German or American with my hatred or grudge against him. Besides that every person is different.

Besides that forgiving somebody can be about pride. Who is the one needed to be forgiven or giving forgiveness, etc. wright. Stay in power.
1 question is allready if you think you have the power to forgive, is it not allready done with the help of God.

One of the things I notices by moving to Israel, is that compared to the Christian Europe where I came from. People here seem to have arguments, but 15 minutes later they often realy don't border or even remembered what it was about that much... (just knowing eachothers borders and forgiveness).
But than in Europe how many sessions do you need to forgive somebody, and talk it over and over, till finding a solution itself makes you sick... (the whole thing about keeping the grudge in Judaism is forbidden, not the hatred or unforgiveness).
So hereby i claim that finding a solution to long might be a grudge itself allready.
And the American way of being to long in self-help groups about these kind of things helps you to stay a victem with grudge.

America when putting forth Judeo Christian values, is likened by some nations as acting in the office of God, as Israel actually did when asked by God to destroy Amalek (descendant of Esau).

The power and ability to enforce or "deliver" the oppressed from forms of government that are not agreeable to other nations among the theater and stage of world politics, is often considered by the less powerful nations, as an affront and offense to what ever diety their majority populus shows allegience, not only their government.

Yahweh had a greater plan in mind when He raised up Israel, for when Israel was disobedient in the ways of God's directions, they were
defeated in battle. Thus showing that obedience to God's theocracy
among the chosen of Israel only benefitted when carried out God's way.

2Cor517

I didn't ment that with my tekst. Just as a person thinks his power to forgive comes from himself it can be pride.

The word Judeo Christian values??? First of all most Romans and Christians are also decendents from Esau... So it becomes somewhat complicated.

And Yes Israel makes mistakes, also a lot of other nations.
I think a lot of nations think that America is just acting in it's self interest, and for a large part I saw proof for that. So far nothing to do with a religious belief perse. And it are not Judeo-Christian values to bomb Serbia and Irak with Napalm I think, well not in the situation in Irak where they had no weapons of mass-destruction.
Other nations might see the U.S.A. as acting outside the office of God. It's commen that you see your own nation as acting in the will of the rightious God, most nations do that. So who has to forgive who is often after a war also a question. And what country was acting the wrong way? At the moment the U.S.A. is one of the nations that acts outside agreements of other nations, and Israel does sometimes too. So what is the difference with Irak etc.?
So does Irak has to forgive the U.S.A. for creating about 100.000 dead people? Or should they realy be thankfull that 1 regime overthows another regime... I don't know.

yetzirah231, Shalom.

You say, above: "Other nations might see the U.S.A. as acting outside the office of God. It's commen that you see your own nation as acting in the will of the rightious God, most nations do that. So who has to forgive who is often after a war also a question. And what country was acting the wrong way? At the moment the U.S.A. is one of the nations that acts outside agreements of other nations, and Israel does sometimes too. So what is the difference with Irak etc.?
So does Irak has to forgive the U.S.A. for creating about 100.000 dead people? Or should they realy be thankfull that 1 regime overthows another regime... I don't know."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I must ask:  Why do you hate the U.S.A. so much that you twist information, to make my country look like a really huge 'Haman?'  And, where on earth did you obtain the number of 100,000 people that we have supposedly killed?

I have tried to keep my mouth shut, but your incessant vilifying of America, or is it Christianity, (whichever), is truly becoming difficult to comprehend.  No matter the subject matter, it seems, you offer a sidebar stating how the bad old U.S.A. out-bad-guys everyone, ever mentioned (I overemphasize, somewhat, but not much).

I am sorry you hold us in such disdain, and will pray that your bitterness be assuaged, and you are able to have pleasant thoughts about my country, and my Christianity (however far out of perfection both may be, in your eyes).

In Messiah, His Shalom, and healing.  Arley  

So, maybe I can say war is an emotional response rather than a Godly one?

Navyblue

I think you are mistaken. As a Jew it's normal to put sidemarks and questions behind the question. It's just to simple to blame always the other to be the axis of evil etc.
And please can you show me where I twist information?

I mainly said that a lot of people see the U.S.A. as a dominant policeman, that is actually some kind of dictator of the world on how to enforce peace and how to get the best business out of it. So the concept is not much different for other ''colonizing'' countries/ideologies.

I also said that Israel is doing things outside the rules of the U.N. and can make mistakes. Do I hate therefor Israel? No. I dislike certain things we might have to do, or do wrong. Just as any other country.

O.K. I agree that about casualties in Irak you can find the wildest estamated studies.
But these are somewhere in the middle. And based on bodycounts.

At on hand different groups in Irak are blowing eachother up. At the other hand only the U.S.A. didn't sign U.N. petitions not to use forms of Napalm anymore. And the U.S.A. and it seems also Israel are using depleted Uranium, where even years after wars a lot of people get cancer from.
So not all the deads are maybe shot by U.S. soldiers, but is using MK77 bombs on civilian neigborhoods more ethicall than what Sudam did to the Kurds? I don't know.
It's not about the numbers, I mean a war that the U.S. wanted in Vietnam and Indonesia against communists took also about 600.000 peoples lokal lives, even Christian communists. So for me Christian dead people are as bad as Muslim dead or Jewish dead. not a lot of Communist countries did attack the Capitalist U.S.A.

Some realistic figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

But war is not the topic. Forgiveness is. I just say that most (religious) people see themselves as the one who does rightious things and fights holy wars. So the question is often: who has to forgive who?
Than still I have options, maybe to forgive the U.S.A. or Israel for they don't know what they are doing. Does that statement of Jesus maybe means that nobody has to think about what they are doing anyway, hence their is forgivenes... no. So the U.S.A. Israel and others should just understand better what they are causing themselves. That is not hatred.

2cor517
War is connected to the Dutch word ''verwarring'' meaning: ''being mixed up, or out of control'' I think it can be both, emotionall and Godly.