JFJ Forums

I was only being sarcasti.  Glad though you mentioned the cult word, cause what then is Jews for Jesus.  So it is okay for Christians to try tell Jews how to practice there religion, but if I wanted to try tell Christian what to believe, it would be called a cult!  Are you agreeing then that Jews for Jesus is just a cult?

Please note I would never tell Christian, how to practice there religion!  I may argue bible and stuff, but if a Christian is happy, and following christianity, makes him a good person...then who am I to judge!

Is it wrong to help someone? What if that person where believing a lie would it be wrong to share the truth?Or should we just let them go on into destructive living and possibly into hurting themselves, us or our families, or someone else? If I am wrong about something that could effect my salvation I would want to be told so and would consider it an honor that someone would be willing to risk telling me the truth. If I am wrong about a trivial matter then it would not need correction but if it involves eternal consequences it would be cruel and evil in my mind to withhold such needed information. Do you agree?
He is so loving and merciful and perfect in every way possible that to be without him is more death than physcial death. Thank G*d he gave us His Holy Spirit after Jesus death to help us to draw us back to Him when we stray else we may have never found a way back!
  The day I shared my poem with JFJ titled, WHY I KNOW G*D LOVES YOU, a huge wind and rain storm hit that night. It was a humdinger for sure. I remember laying in bed and hearing the wind outside and the storm and knowing that tornados are prone to this area just told the wind to go someplace else. I thought immediately of the poem I had written, I thought of Peter and Jesus on the lake, I know that G*d is powerful and I thought about these things as I lay there in bed. It did not immediately stop as in my heart I would have liked it too but it did let up and something said that maybe whatever was trying to brew itself up was driven in another direction and I felt the Holy Spirit speak to my heart that I was safe inside and not to even think about the storm outside. Istn that the way we should put all things into perspective in light of them being outside and us being inside? That G*d had given me this house to keep me safe and protected inside and to just appreciate it. So thats what I did, I just started to look around the room at all that G*d had given to me and felt very safe. I wonder if that is what Noah and his family felt like. I love to preach, Im sorry, it comes naturally. I do believe there is a right place for it and a wrong place for it and I so hope this is the right place.
The next morning the sun broke threw my window curtain and I heard the birds singing and immediately the thought came to my mind that someone had come back to G*d after reading my poem and for them as it was for me at that moment a new day was dawning. I guess some would think I think about G*d too much but I just love Him so very much and I see so much wonder and beauty in life, also unfortunately I see so much else too, but even in that it is good isnt it? To be able to see it and not be afraid of it and then to boldly stand against it...this is truely a good thing.Truely G*ds word in the Bible is reliable and trustworthy, everything He said in it will come to pass.

Look personally, I try hard not to preach to people, cause to me it is just arogance.  Trying to tell everyone, how much better my way is the there way.  Also how can we ever be sure what we believe is correct...and you can tell me all you want how in your heart you know it is true, but its your heart and your brain, and your upbringing that has caused you to have your beliefs.  No one will ever without doubt be able to prove the absolute truth of any religion.

Granted sometimes people do need help, and words of wisdom, can help.  All I say, and you did say it yourself, that there is a right place and a wrong place.

Are you sure though that you feel the need to preech, because you are not really truly confident in what you believe and you need the recognition in others to make you feel better.  Your story about the storm I suppose could be touching, but the storm would have happened regardless if you had ever written the poem and sent it to JFJ, it is your mind that is associating the storm with the poem.  But if it makes you feel good, then it is great, and religion is good in your life, but know it is not going to be the same for others.

So I guess if preaching does make you happy, then who am I to stop it, or tell you not to, but just know Orthodox Jews do not like being preached to about christianity, and there are thousands of other people out there to whom you preaching may be better accepted!  The Jews have always been targeted for there religion.....millions of Jews have died for there religion, so not sure why an organisation would target Jews and continue the pattern of history thinkig they are doing good.

That is the difference.  a cult does judge and stand in judgement and take full credit for their name being the ultimate authority.  I have not seen any such 'cult' behavior in service to JFJ (yes, briefly, only 6 months) nor in any literature, guest sedars, or correspondance I have exchanged with the organization.

No bylaw, rule, code, creed in the name of JEW FOR JESUS is recited, memorized, chanted, or sold for nonprofit support goals...unless you say that pepsi is a cult for using slogans "the Pepsi generation" or AllState Insurance "You're in good hands with Allstate"

"Jesus made me Kosher"  is not the stuff of cult brain washing.

It is advertising at worst, and truth the reader's digest version (oops! another country heard from the reader's digest!!! their reputation for condensing literature proceeds them, too, not in a cult way, though? right.)

People standing in the flesh G-d gave them, proclaiming the heritage they are rightful heirs to, and in short easy to understand language, proclaiming that thereis a G-d and He Lives; Rejoice in Y'shua, the fulfillment of ALL the prophecy of the scripture (and are willing to get o it and be debated, live); a plan for the return of those chosen from the foundation of the earth, to the Father in Heaven; the redemption of sin, not of man but of G-d (key here, to the whole cult definition...seriously); and expecting His return at any moment.

What among those issues I just outlined are not a part of any Rabbi's teaching?  
Heritage?
G-d used prophets to declare is coming Messiah?
A plan to return the chosen (written in the Book of Life from the foundation) to the Father in Heaven?
Redemtion is the LORD's and not of man?

I think that even in the Orthodox community there have been murmurs of a Messiah and a debate proved the rumors wrong...true...but so far the truth that all the prophecies that have been fulfilled are in Y'shua have not been disproved, and better still have not been REPLACED by another.  

I think the major difference between Jews for Jesus and the Orthodox community is there is no more fence sitting in the JFJ camp they are decided, and will stand certain that they have known whom they have believed and He is faithful to keep all that they have entrusted in Him safe against that day!  (I mean to say faith!)

bye for now,
kimberly
and I knew you were being sarcastic...just had a moment or two to see just how determined you were to continue in your right mind to a reaonable discussion.

Listen 4everhisown

Like it or dont, Orthodox Jews are by Jewish law not allowed to believe Jesus is G-d and the Messiah.  You can preech what you like, believe what you like, but a Orthodox Jew, follows many laws like dont mix meat and milk, dont drive on the sabbath, and well we are still waiting for the Messiah.  You can try and preech to Jews that they can still be Jewish and believe in Jesus as the Messiah but you would be lying, you would simply be trying to make a Jew into a Christian.  So instead of trying to pull the wool other peoples eyes telll them your truth, and tell them to be Christians.  Dont beat around the bush!

You have no right to tell Orthodox Jews how to run there religion, and this is what Jews for Jesus is trying to do.  So by all means preech Christianity if it makes you happy....Just dont try fool Jewish people into believing in Jesus, tell the truth.  You cannot remain a Orthodox Jew, and believe in Jesus. In the same way, that a Reform or conservative Jew, cannot say he is a Orthodox Jew, a Jew for Jesus can in no way say he is a Orthodox Jew.  A more accurate name for a Jew for Jesus would be a "former Jew now for Jesus" or simply a "Christian".  More confusing is that  Jews for Jesus is not a Religion, it is only a ministry....If a Jew for Jesus went to a Reform, conservative or Orthodox shul, he would feel very out of place, yet he would feel right at home going to a Church. So not sure how a jew believing in jesus can call himself a Jew, as his place of worship becomes a church, which would make him Christian!

If you live in a country you have to live by the rules of that country, you cannot steal and then try convince a court that stealing is correct.  In the same way if you want to be a Orthodox Jew, you have to live by the laws and rules of Orthod judaism, and until it changes, you cannot believe Jesus is the Messiah.  If people want to have there own beliefs, then dont try claim to be a Orthodox Jew!  Make up your own religion or become a Christian!

Hi Chayim;

Thank you for responding.  I think it is notable.  May I ask one thing? What is the point of 'waiting for Messiah' but never believing it is possible to live in time when it has been fulfilled?  For me, and here is the question, truly, honestly, is it that each individual Orthodox Jew must be convinced that the Messiah's coming is? in the present tense?  or is there room for the coming to be actual, yet some Orthodox Jew somewhere could conceivably be unaware?  Isn't about a personal relationship, sincerely?  If at first you read this and are taken aback, I apologize.  The intent is sincere.  I want to find out what it is you really believe.  Could it happen without you knowing?  And me? and anyone who is waiting for the LORD to keep His promises.  He does keep EVERY promise.  Like it is written when he spoke to Moses there was no other greater so He swore by His own.

bye for now,
kimberly

Chayim, did YOU notice that Kimberly made a distinction between the Orthodox community and a Jew for Jesus?  Even though "orthodox" simply means "straight path", I think we can accept that the term "orthodox Jew" has been claimed by a certain body of rabbinical authorities, and therefore one should not call himself an Orthodox Jew if he does not follow those rabbinical authorities.

The problem comes when an Orthodox Jew tells a Jewish believer in Jesus that he is not a Jew at all.  Here is where we disagree and where the inconsistency starts.  You mention Reform Jews, yet they do not follow Orthodox rules, and some Jews are even atheists.  Why should they be allowed to call themselves Jews, yet when a Jew believes in Jesus, he suddenly becomes a non-Jew, according to Orthodox rabbis?  The reason given is that they have become idolators in worshiping Jesus.  That is their erroneous opinion, which they have the right to hold, but they do not have the right to dictate to every Jew that Jew can call himself.  The New Testament teaches that Jesus is Messiah for the Jew FIRST.  Just as you cannot validly claim to be an Orthodox Jew without subscribing to the rules of Orthodox Judaism, so a person cannot be a believer in Jesus without accepting the teachings of Jesus which include that Jews need to accept Jesus as their Messiah, the one who was the basis of all atonement from Abel to Zechariah, and beyond.  Your wishful thinking that Jews who believe in Jesus would stop claiming to be Jews and would stop trying to persuade other Jews to believe in Jesus is asking them to deny the very core of their faith.  You might as well ask an Orthodox rabbi to approve eating pork and chopping wood for a fire on the Sabbath.  But if you are going to defend Orthodox Judaism so zealously, I suggest that you get your own beliefs Orthodox first.  I still wonder why you are so bothered by these things.

Thomas let me ask you, would you not be bothered if a Chrsitian group started that ran around, telling everyone that they are Christians, yet Jesus is not the Messiah and G-d, and the core of there beliefs and actions become to convince all other Chrsitians that they are right and everyone else is wrong!  It was discussed at the beginning of these post, that they would be considered a cult!  

Once a person starts to believe in the new testament, and Jesus, they become Christian.  They are 2 religions not one!  You can try and turn them into one religion, but all you would be doing is trying to wipe out the Jews, which is what Christianity and the world has been trying to do for a long time!  

Thomas do yourself a favour and go to a Orthodox syngogue anywhere in the world, and you will find that the service will pretty the same service read in hebrew in pretty much the same order.  They may have a few different songs added, but the core of the service will be the same.  On a Tuesday and thursday morning service, the Torah will be read from.  This is Orthodox judaism...the same every where in the world.  Most Orthodox Jews view reform and conservative Jews, as non Jews, so they will never intermarry.  But they tolerate them because they believe in and read the old testament.

Reform Judaism does not say anything Orthodox Jews do is wrong, for example reform does not have any food (Kosher) laws.  There are lots of reform Jews that do keep kosher though....the reason that it is not a law is they say that the laws do come from human interpretation of scripture, that is why we can keep it we want to. So they keep the Ten commandments and the laws that are very clear....but the laws that are interpretations of scripture they leave up to the individual whether or not he want to keep it.

(If you are interested there is a book online that outlines reform approach, let me know if you are interested in reading it, they have a real intelligent, and sensful approach to things. Although I am orthodox I love the reform approach to things.)

Christianity though say Jesus came to replace the laws.....and these laws are of importance to "Jews"  so the moment you want to totally throw these laws out the window....you are no longer a Jews!

Why if a Jew wants to believe in Jesus...can he not just accept he is becoming a Christian?  If you want to remain  Jewish, then go study Judaism.  Like I have said before most Jews who become Jews for Jesus are ignorant of Jewish law.  Go study Judaism, as well as Christianity and then make a decision.  Be a Christian or a Jew.....you cant be both!  It is like saying you are gay male, but you are not attracted to other men!  There are 3 main religions in this world, If you want to be a Jew, till there is peace on earth, you cannot believe that the Messiah has ever come!

Thanks for the question, if I understand it correctly it is a good question.     To Jews as far as I know, the most important criteria for the coming of the Messiah is world peace.  One morning we will all wake up and switch on the TV,  and there will be a huge change in the world....there will be worldwide peace, no more fighting, no more people killing each other.    So know it could never happen without me knowing, because the world at the moment is a mess, humans do not know how to treat each other.  Switch on the news and you will see all the murder, death and destruction the human race is responsible for.

The Jews do not believe either that the Messiah will be G-d, he will be a normal human being.  But how could a normal human perform such a "miracle"  So I guess this is why Christian believe such a miracle could only be performed by G-d himself.

I ask you what is the point of believing the Messiah has come if the world is such a mess?  I can understand the belief that he is coming back, but this is where Judaism and Christianity agree, we are still waiting, waiting for the messiah to come and bring world peace. There may be someone on earth who has the possibilty of fulfilling the role of the Messiah, but he has not yet accomplished his Goals.  Living life waiting for the Messiah to me is pointless, we should be all living our lives as if we ourselves are the Messiah, and trying to accomplish the Goals of the Messiah.  Maybe if everyone was giving a hand this individual may then be able to accomplish his goals!

First, this, even though it was addressed to Kimberley:  "I ask you what is the point of believing the Messiah has come if the world is such a mess?"

The point is that the first problem to solve is the heart of man, and Jesus brought the solution to that problem.  Jesus did not take the storm away yet, but He gave us peace in the midst of the storm.  If He had taken way the storm, no one could have seen His miracle.

"Living life waiting for the Messiah to me is pointless, we should be all living our lives as if we ourselves are the Messiah, and trying to accomplish the Goals of the Messiah."

Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth," and to pray, "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."  We are certainly supposed to be trying to accomplish the goals of the Messiah in our own sphere of influence, and after revivals of faith, it has made huge differences.  The world would be an unspeakably horrible place to live, were it not for believers in Jesus, plus the blessings of Israelites.  I call to your attention the island of New Guinea for a dramatic example.  Unfortunately, the job has not been done as well as it should have been, and Jesus will attend to that lack personally.  Why? For the same reason why Israel did not do their job as they should when they were in the land.