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Here is what I consider to be contextually important surrounding the question referenced Ephesians passages in question
The question :when Paul said Gentiles are “grafted into Israel”(Romans11:17) and through the blood of Messiah you become a part of the “commonwealth of Israel” are Gentiles still strangers from God’s covenants or are they one new man in Israel? (Eph 2:12, 15)

This few lines in this verse i want to point out:
"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."
and :
"by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,"
Eph 2:11-22

I wanted to offer some additional passages that seem somewhat paradoxical in their explanation of the relationship between Jew and Greek (and I am assuming when Paul references the Greek in his writings, he is also referring to Gentiles.  Please correct me if that is an erroneous assumption).
On the one hand, the Jew is first (although the wording doesn’t really suggest an order regarding the Greek – check out “and also to”):
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written," BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."Rom1:16-17.

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:9-11

Yet on the other hand, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.
For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:11-13)

Gal 3:23-29 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all children of God, through faith in Messiah Yeshua.  For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua.If you are Messiah’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Messiah is all, and in all. Col 3:8-11

Personally, I don’t believe you can consider Romans 11 regarding the olive tree apart from Yeshua’ teaching on the true vine found in Yoch 15.
And it would seem to me that the vine described in John 15 and the root of Romans 11 are one in the same … Yeshua Messiah our Lord !

Again Isaiah says,"THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE,
                         AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES,
                         IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE." (Romans 15:12).
Rev5:4-5 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.".
Rev 22:16 I, Yeshua, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star.”" Rev 22:16.

Yoch15:1-11 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.  You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you. “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples.  Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love.If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be made full.

If there are ANY other passages of scripture I should consider in trying to drill down to the answer of faith and belief that God desires on this Question (regardless of what you believe), please let me know.
I would discourage any debate on this topic here.  Sometime we simply need to read and see the word of God and let the Holy Spirit teach us all, every one of us.  But please, please offer any and all key scriptures or their associated references that have influenced how you might answer to Rom 11.
HOPE7 Wrote:


I, my dearest ones, believe with my whole heart we are in what G*d has deemed the LAST DAYS. I ask for prayer for two unspoken requests tonight. May I be able to do the right thing and honor G*d when He answers our prayers. Shalom. Peace to you and yours.


High Hope ,i liked your answer .Cheesygrin
I did not see this answer before until today .
Yes your right ,we need to ask God to bless his people from the past .
Me to feel hard times are on the way , I feel it will be the last battle on earth .

Pray it will be a short time.
Math 24:22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

Rom 9:26  9:25 As he says also in Hosea,

“I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people;
    and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.”*
9:26 “It will be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    There they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”*

9:27 Isaiah cries concerning Israel,

“If the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea,
    it is the remnant who will be saved;
9:28 for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
    because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”*

9:29 As Isaiah has said before,

“Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us a seed,
    we would have become like Sodom,
    and would have been made like Gomorrah.”*

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 9:31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 9:32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 9:33 even as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense;
    and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.”

10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 10:2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 10:3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn’t subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 10:4 For Messiah is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Wow. Everytime I read Romans 11 Im humbled, arent you? How can one begin to thank G*d for the gift of salvation through His only son Jesus Christ? Gratitude, what gratitude.
HOPE7 Wrote:

Wow. Everytime I read Romans 11 Im humbled, arent you? How can one begin to thank G*d for the gift of salvation through His only son Jesus Christ? Gratitude, what gratitude.


Yes I agree ,me to !

A specialy this verse :
Rom11:25-27
For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN ,
and so all Israel will be saved.

Even as it is written,

“There will come out of Zion the Deliverer,
    and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
This is my covenant to them,
    when I will take away their sins.”
Compare Rom 11:25-27  to
Jeremiah31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:  31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD.  31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:  31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from their least to their greatest, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

And to Lukas 22:20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Heb10:16-18
“This is the covenant that I will make with them:
    ‘After those days,’ says the Lord,
‘I will put my laws on their heart,
    I will also write them on their mind;’”

then he says,

  “I will remember their sins and their iniquities no more.”*
So how come many of you are silent ?

Rom14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s.  14:9 For to this end Messiah died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Messiah. 14:11 For it is written,

“‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘to me every knee will bow.
    Every tongue will confess to God.’”



Rom 16:17 Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them.  16:18 For those who are such don’t serve our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, but their own belly; and by their smooth and flattering speech, they deceive the hearts of the innocent.  16:19 For your obedience has become known to all. I rejoice therefore over you. But I desire to have you wise in that which is good, but innocent in that which is evil.  16:20 And the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with you.
ThomasDGW Wrote:

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are Israelites who had been unbelievers, but who receive grace to become believers and are the first of the formerly lost house of Israel to receive their Messiah.

I see the most important teaching for this time the admonishment to believers in Jesus to not be proud against those unbelievers of Israel, but to tremble at the thought that an Israelite could lose his place in his own olive tree.


(1) why 144,000? i thought that was a round number of completeness, not in any way designating the number who would be actually saved.
(2) if an israelite could lose his place, how much more the gentile who didn't belong there in the first place!
slaves2sin Wrote:

ThomasDGW Wrote:

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are Israelites who had been unbelievers, but who receive grace to become believers and are the first of the formerly lost house of Israel to receive their Messiah.

I see the most important teaching for this time the admonishment to believers in Jesus to not be proud against those unbelievers of Israel, but to tremble at the thought that an Israelite could lose his place in his own olive tree.


(1) why 144,000? i thought that was a round number of completeness, not in any way designating the number who would be actually saved.
(2) if an israelite could lose his place, how much more the gentile who didn't belong there in the first place!



I believe 144000 is a symbolic number ,as everything in Revelation is symbolic .

And no I do not agree the gentiles didn,t belong in teh olive true in the first place !

You know what Paul  says  in Gal 4:4,5 ,Eph 2:18-20 ?

Total freedom in Yeshua is for both Jews and Gentiles .

The so called elite Jewish Christians did try to lay a new yoke up on the Gentiles .
Do read the scriptures :
Gal1:1-6,Gal 6:15 and Phil 3;2-9
In fact there are just one sort of Christians they are all equal in the body.
All are made free from sin through Yeshua Messiah blood. Act 7:47,48-59.

This problem existed already in the first days after Yeshua died .
They called them self the so called better Jewish Christians.
Paul is talking about those men in Act 15:5-11 and Act 15:19-29 .

Through time religious man did try to build their own holy houses,
1Cor 6:19>Act 7:48 > Act 17:24
But in fact all are equal in the body .
Math 23:10 ,1Cor 2:5, 1Joh2:27,Joh 14:26.




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