part 1) The Question :
I was reviewing an exchange with another ex JW ,and also Jews for Jesus.
This peeked my curiosity but the scriptures were never really explained.
At least not to my understanding.
Could some here explain Romans 11, Verses 24-33 ?
From the NKJV...Romans 24- For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25-For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26- And so all Israel will be saved as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27- For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28- Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake of the fathers, 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30- For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31-even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32- For God committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Now JW say this :
Paul most likely was addressing quite of few of those of wild branches, being Greek, and not all natural Jews in the Roman congregation!
--YOU PROBABLY KNOW THAT the natural branches were to be of the Jews themselves but because most of their failing to be grafted into what might be called the branches of the "Christian system of things" they had to be replaced by the "wild branches"--those of the nations to fulfill the number that would make up the "little flock" of 144,000 heavenly kingdom heirs(Luke 12:32) “. . .“Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”
(Revelation 14:1) “14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.....3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”
Rom 11:24 cross ref. (Romans 11:17) “. . .However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness,”
How do you answer ?
Thanks in advance and may God bless you all ,
I am not sure I understand what the problem is that you are having with this passage.
First of all, Luke 12:32 was directed to the disciples, who were Jews (see verse 22). The teaching is very explicit in Luke 12:28-30.
The natural olive branches are individuals of Israel, whose natural destiny was to receive the fatness of the blessing of God. However, because of unbelief, many were cut off. Because of an overall unbelief regarding accepting Jesus as the Messiah in the time of visitation (seeing the miracles and teachings), places in the olive tree were opened up to gentiles, being spiritually grafted into the blessings originally destined for descendants of Israel. It was NOT for "their failing to be grafted into what might be called the branches of the "Christian system of things" ". That is a heinous doctrine. The olive tree of Israel already contained all of the blessings of God, including the atonement by the Messiah. Israelites don't have to be grafted into anything except their own olive tree.
Romans 11:26 speaks of a time when there will be no more unbelief among Israelites. At that time, they will all be recipients of the blessings of their olive tree, along with those gentile who were grafted in by their faith in Israel's Messiah Jesus. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are Israelites who had been unbelievers, but who receive grace to become believers and are the first of the formerly lost house of Israel to receive their Messiah.
I see the most important teaching for this time the admonishment to believers in Jesus to not be proud against those unbelievers of Israel, but to tremble at the thought that an Israelite could lose his place in his own olive tree.
I understand what you say ,thank you for telling me .
But most Christians do see this differant as also Jehovah witness do.
As you point out
'It was NOT for "their failing to be grafted into what might be called the branches of the "Christian system of things" ". That is a heinous doctrine.
Now do also Jews have their own doctrine about this verse ... I thought ?
Sorry but I am just a simple woman ?
But I believe this verse is NOT talking about the nation Israel .
But in whome do i need to grafted ?
Grafted in man who say we are God people ?
Yisrâêl means "
Gen 32:26,27
Jacob said, “I won’t let you go, unless you bless me.”
32:27 He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
32:28 He said, “Your name will no longer be called Jacob, but Israel;
for YOU HAVE FOUGHT WITH GOD AND WITH MEN , and have prevailed.”
Before we did not know who yeshua our savior is we fought with God and men ,
But he caled us and we did hear his voice ,and we understand all need to be grafted into Messiah to receive eternal live ,we are his body .
Christ did bring a everlasting sacrifice !
All believers in Messiah are called out to come to him .
We ,have fought with God and men (the "Christian system of things")
and prevailed to be grafted into the ONE VINE "YESHUA ".
We are reborn in him.Yoch3:5-8
My Messiah Yeshua is The True Vine.
I need to be grafted IN TO HIM ,only then we receive Eternal Live .
Live is in the Son .
We are set apart from this world to become one in Messiah ,to become more holy. Rev 22:11,14, COMPARE >Yoch 17:23.
We ARE ONE IN HIM
I remember what Yeshua said in Yoch 4:21-24
Yoch 4:21 Yeshua said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, NOR IN JERUSALEM ,WILL YOU WORSHIP THE FATHER.
4:22 You worship that which you don’t know. We worship that which we know; for SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS .
Yes Yeshua was a Jew , the saviour came from the Jews .
But Yeshua also says :
4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers.
4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
We are reborn children ,reborn from the spirit .
Yoch 6:63 It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
Yoch 6:56He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him.
“Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves.
Anja, you call yourself a simple woman, but you are making things abundantly complex by mixing vines with olive trees. I don't see where anyone is grafted into the vine of Jesus Christ. We who are born again are growing branches in the vine, which is Jesus. The olive trees are of two types, the good and the wild. This seems to represent Israel, the good olive tree, and gentiles, the wild olive tree.
It really does not bother me what most Christians or JWs think.
I am sorry ,but i can not agree,
In verse 18 Paul begins to stress this equality. He warns the Gentile Christians not to boast of the fact that branches were cut off that they might be grafted in. For, he says, "it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you (v 18)." What, then, is this root? Is the root creation, as above in verse 16, the other nations from which Israel was separated? Is it the rich tradition that is narrated through-out the Old Testament? Or is it a much richer root, even, than that--perhaps salvation? Any of these meanings might fit in with the logic of Paul's argument. In any case, whatever the referent for the image, Paul makes it clear that Gentile Christians and Jews are partners in it. Verse 19 is the conjectured argument of the Gentile Christians in Rome against what Paul had just said. Nonetheless, in verses 20-24, Paul sticks to his purpose: neither Gentile Christians nor Jews are more favored by God, but both share equally in God's gift. Paul stresses the importance of faith in verse 20. He says that it is only because of their faith that the Gentile Christians have been grafted in, and that God cut off only those Jews who were unbelieving. He admonishes the believers to "stand in awe (v 20)" instead of becoming proud of their inclusion in the sharing the rich root.
Paul next reminds those to whom he was writing of God's justice in judgment. Whereas Paul remarked above in verse 11 that the Jews had not "stumbled so as to fall," here in verse 22 he admits that some have fallen; and it is toward those that God's judgment has been severe. However, for those who did not stumble, but believed, God's judgment has been merciful. Nevertheless, Paul warns that they may still be cut off it they do not persevere in believing. Even further, Paul asserts that, for those who have already been cut off because of their unbelief, if they repent and believe, then "God has the power to graft them in again (v 23)." He continues with the olive tree metaphor in verse 24: If God was able to graft in a wild olive branch to a cultivated tree, how much easier would it be for God to graft back in that branch that was originally part of the tree? In other words, God has accepted Gentile Christians IN THE PLAN OF SALVATION , and as for Jews, to whom it was originally offered, it is a much more natural endeavor to accept them once they believe.
So Jews and Gentile need to be grafted into this plan of salvation which is in Yahshua ,for God is merciful.
1)
You say:It really does not bother me what most Christians or JWs think.
The represent Israel, the good olive tree, and gentiles, the wild olive tree.
Dear brother ,I do not belong to JW,s ore to the Christian world.
I belong to one "Yeshua " .
If you are grafted in him you understand what Paul is really talking about and to me it is not Israel .
Messianic Jews have their own dogma about this verse, as JW,s also have.
grafted into Israel and her covenants?
In the last week or so, I put up a post entitled Covenantal Questions. Two of the questions I posed were:
If you believe the Sinai covenant was ‘grandfathered’ into the new covenant or continues to be apart of the new covenant, is there scriptural support for such a belief?
If you believe the above, how are Gentiles made subject to a conditional covenant with the sons of Israel that they did not also agree to? What is the scriptural support?
On the same day, a dear sister IN Christ put up a YouTube video titled 10 Bible Questions for Christians. I wrote all 10 questions down and am wrestling with each of them one by one in my personal journal, testing what I have come to believe against the conclusions suggested in that video. After all, if what I believe can’t stand up to scrutinization and testing, what good is it?
When Paul said Gentiles are “grafted into Israel” (Romans 11:17) and through the blood of Messiah you become a part of the “commonwealth of Israel” are Gentiles still strangers from God’s covenants or are they one new man in Israel? (Eph 2:12, 15)
In the same day I posed my questions, I got answers to my questions. That is so cool!
So now begins the testing …
If you are in agreement with the conclusion this question is leading you to, please don’t take this post as a personal affront.
I am testing my faith and beliefs … not yours. This post is a bit long and primarily Scripture … with very little offered interpretation.
Let the Word of God speak!
Thank you for your kind sharing of insight imparted to you, it is helpful.
I believe that Isreal is blessed of G*d just as G*ds word says so, seperate and apart from any covenant made to anyone else, having said that I also believe that at some point and time Isreal strayed and at some point rejected G*d, well many times, and G*d made a New Covenant that being Jesus Christ our Righteousness or what I call TLOR The Lord our Righteousness for all of us, Jew and Gentile alike. I no longer think that just the Jewish nation is blessed but all who accept G*d and His precepts are blessed and as you have so rightly spoken grafted into the vine,and live by His precepts and do so out of love and not fear or blind ritual. That both, Jew and Gentile, can and will serve the Hebrew G*d which is the only Living G*d of heaven equally.
Now, I still believe, that a person would be ill advised to mistreat or disrespect G*ds chosen people the Jewish nation, knowing severe consequences of such an action, again based on scripture but also on the fact I sense in my inmost being that G*d has a special place in his heart of hearts for His chosen people the Jewish nation. And lets not forget the warning to the engrafted branch that should we also reject or stray that we could also be cut off and also G*d can re-ingraft His own just as well. We serve a mighty G*d and I cant speak for anyone else but have you noticed all the happenings going on and how scripture is being fulfilled.
I, my dearest ones, believe with my whole heart we are in what G*d has deemed the LAST DAYS. I ask for prayer for two unspoken requests tonight. May I be able to do the right thing and honor G*d when He answers our prayers. Shalom. Peace to you and yours.
part2) Let the Word of God speak!
OK, first off, here is the entire 11th chapter of Romans for our consideration and meditation:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
And David says,"LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
BUT IF SOME BRANCHES WERE BROKEN OFF if ,AND YOU ,BEING A WILD OLIVE ,WERE GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM AND BECAME PARTAKER WITH THEM OF THE RICH ROOT of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, REMEMBER THAT IT IS NOT YOU WHO SUPPORTS THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT SUPPORTS YOU. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith.
(Next part will follow.)
part3) Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.
THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:1-36 (NASB)
(NOTE: Just so everyone understands, in Scripture the olive tree is traditionally considered to be Israel based on words God spoke thru His prophets.)
I can’t help but wonder if the following words of John the Baptist may also have some bearing on what Paul is describing in Romans 11 ?
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Matt 3:7-10
But why use the plural ‘trees’? Is he referring to how Judaism had denominated (Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, priests, scribes, etc.) or is there something else the Lord might be trying to tell us thru John’s words? At this point, I won’t pretend to know … just sharing a possible connection.
Now here is what I consider to be contextually important surrounding the question referenced Ephesians passages in question #5:
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands— remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22
I wanted to offer some additional passages that seem somewhat paradoxical in their explanation of the relationship between Jew and Greek (and I am assuming when Paul references the Greek in his writings, he is also referring to Gentiles. Please correct me if that is an erroneous assumption).