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That is also what I find- that most of the time you can
find no information about these "rabbis" outside of Messianic
sites.

Although I am sure, of course there are exceptions, I would
wager the list of these "rabbis" who were actually rabbis
and converted to Christianity is very small indeed.

Leviticus 26 sure has a lot to say about a people prone to rebellion and stubborn/willful disobedience.   I would consider it a rabbi's chief concern as to what is their salvation?  wouldn't anyone who read the text?  But I also wanted to say, that it was in Genesis that man first found out that they will die for sinning.  For choosing to believe and act in a manner that depicts another source of Truth/Righteousness/Authority/Teaching/Creation....that is not the LORD.  That is sin, in a nutshell.  But when, in Genesis Adam and Eve first sinned, that is the time the LORD first told them they would die, because of it.  When you read in Leviticus..the sin problem is far worse..FAR WORSE..with idols, despising the LORD, and rejecting that their is an Almighty Creator, even.  

Salvation is not a concept that is foreign to Rabbis; please do not mislead with your statements..that the sin in the world is just so easily cast aside as a little cottonwood on the the winds of the forrest...Today, as it has always intended...sin is taking lives.

Rabbis know salvation is needed, and a blood sacrifice is required.  The LORD has provided, and will never forget the Promises He has made.

bye for now,
kimberly

bye for now,
kimberly

4everhisown

Hi, thanks for the reply...

Yes we know about salvation. Actually God said before the sinning that we should die if we did... (but who knew what was dying anyway than?).

Only in Judaism we are allready almost 6000 years used to the fact that salvation is in periods and stages. And it is not our main course.
In Christianity it is almost all about love and salvation... And o.k. if you live a westernized-protestant country / Calvinistic... Even Jews might learn from T.V. that the world is bad, and we need a savior etc.

Well God saved us in Egypt and made HIS promisses allready to us. I don't see a point to do it via somebody else... We just do it every year with the same God, and same tradition.

And than what, Jezus came arround for the non-Jews maybe, and since he died, people still sin etc. So was it only a stage, or to high expectations from the crowd? Also Christians still need to be redeemed. They still should ask forgivenss from God and others still. So what is the saviour thing all about than? Still same system?

Because of Adam and Eve's Sin of taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Now I see alot of orthodox jews using Ezekiel 18 as a defense that Adam and Eve's sin is nulled. I  found the error in that logic. I've done some research regarding Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31:27-32. They both state the same context....What is Ezek 18 and Jer. 31 really about? In both scenarios Israel was worshiping other Gods. Both Ezek 18 and Jer. 31 are referring to Exodus 20:5. In Jer. 31:32 is the key to linking to Exodus 20:5 is....the covenant
       I made with their forefathers
       when I took them by the hand
       to lead them out of Egypt,.... The answer to Ezek 18 and Jer 31 and Exo 20 are referring to worshiping Idols. That the sons will not pay for the father's sin in worshiping Idols. That has nothing to do with the other commandments in Exodus 20. Except the other ones mentions in Ezekiel 18. These verses pertain to Exodus 20:5 and nothing more. Everything before Exodus 20:5 (Adam and Eve's sin) is not affected by Ezek 18 and Jer 31. Thus, there is a required sacrifice to atone for Adam and Eve's sin. What is the requirement? Death. I mean this with the up most respect to you but I don't like to sugar coat the truth. Either a person is going to atone for Adam and Eve's sin with their own blood(Since your blood is tainted with Adam and Eve's sin it is not clean and you will end up in Hell. God won't accept blemishes on a lamb for the alter sacrifice of the tabernacle. What makes it a difference from our tainted blood in comparison to a lamb with blemishes? God won't accept our tainted blood.) or the "Lamb" of God can die for you, in exchange, so you can have passage to salvation by grace. Which is through the blood of Jesus. Son of God. I don't write this to irritate any of you in Judaism, but the fact is that sin Adam and Eve did was not paid for in full until Jesus died on that cross about 2000 years ago.

Hi Yetzirah231;

You are most welcome.  I liked your honest answer here, above, too.  Two things I am thinking, and want to throw out there.

First thing:

Babies.  Who knows what they want!  Well the Mother and the Father; that's who!  Same with the Adam and Eve Story.  Ask the Father about any questions that baby Adam and baby Eve (as first of mankind, that is) had!  I truly believe that the story of Adam and Eve is essential reading for free will thinkers and pro-choice advocates.  Especially with the added question you put above!  No lie, How can a baby know right from wrong without the Parent?

Next thing:

Still the same system?...Ok, you may have been refering to the Yom Kippur?  The once a year day of atonement.  But even this has deviated from the Scriptural so much!  Now many, many congregations add the day before as a pre-atonement, atonement day of sorts just in case you are unable to be atoned for, on the day of atonement, I guess???

No, I have to say things are not the same system.  How we long for the LORD of the scriptures! Add here, the promises He has given, have not changed!...but slowly and surely we, as human beings, have incorporated the strong leadership of men into the worship/obedience practices.  We seek to obey these strong men, far more than we seek to Please the LORD!  My take on things is that there are millions of people out there that solely rely on guru, priest, and religious zealot to 'get you into heaven'.  

The thing about Judiaism and Christianity...is that the LORD knows you by name; wants to have fellowship with you; share in the worship experience with you; and in fact do all the work of salvation; asks only that you believe! It is so very much (so very much!) like the relationship between the infant and the Parent.  Except, my dear one, these children are plotting the course of humanity, from their big business outlet, to their corporate chairs, now aren't they?  The diapers are off!

The LORD loves us, He says "that none should perish"!  And that His love is not like our love...for He loved us first.  I believe it has taken so long, to complete the work of salvation, in man's terms, just because we love only who love us back.  The LORD is not like that.  He will not tolerate a false heart, no question! But an uninformed, deluded and misinformed heart?  He has compassion and sees the love they have to give Him, once He is proclaimed.  So, who died so that you might hear about Him?  Seriously.

well, bye for now,
kimberly

Jadin Xquire

Well I have to dive into the subject. I never heard a rabbi saying that the ''sin'' of Adam and Eve is over allready... But I don't know all our text and books....
Thanks for the text, sounds interesting.

But.
1. for us worshipping Yeshua is also Idol-worship, so I have to find the comparison within the text also.
2. I don't believe in 2000 years etc. Even John sais in revelations, that the sheep of God is allready slaughtered even before the beginning of earth. John is more kabbelistic.
3. I personally think that we still didn't pay for the originall sin. We (and Christians) still fall under the ''blessing'' that we die in flesh, and that childlabour is not easy etc. So why didn't God take that away than??? No I think that after the 6000 years things will change and it's only a few hundred years...

But I will read later.
Greetings

4everhisown

Shalom, it's late so quick,

FIRST thing about Baby's
Well I don't completely understand your question, but let me say this.
1. I think Adam and Eve where different than babies, anyway they might have had some eternal-life body. And God know they understood their responsibility.
2. God said after the story of Noach. That now God knew that humans are bad from Childhood on. That means, not at the age of babies.
3. After the age of 12 or 13 children are adult, and responsible for their own deeds in Judaism. Before that they have time enought to learn and make mistakes. Hoping that they have a good teacher.

SECOND thing
SECOND DAY.
There is no pre-atonement. The 2nd days outside of Israel are there, mainly in order to do it, that there might not be a mistake in counting the days. (in Tenach God didn't explain us how to work with westernized-timezones in combination with new moon etc.) we had to make a system just to be shure that the festivals are celebrated at least on the correct day. The 1st or 2nd day is there in order to be shure you fullfilled Gods commandment.

A high-priest didn't get us in heaven nor we had to worship a priest, so I guess Judaism is different. Off course after the westeners destroyed our Temple, we don't have priests anymore. with Teachers/Rabbi's you don't have the same relation/expectation if you are a healthy jew.

Judaism is different than only believing. We have to do, God commanded us. And we also said, ''we will do and listen'' when we received the Torah. So what came first? Doing!!   Indeed as a child you don't always understand why you have to do what your parents say, so just do it.

Where is it written: ''none shoud perish''??? God made negative statements about the end off days of Babylonians and Amelekites.

Off course God tolerates certain falce hearts, for we are not pure and perfect. And our people heard about God more than 1000 years before Jesus was born/died. So we didn't need that sacrifice to know The Almighty.
We had/have salvation.

About if it is the same system. I mean more like: still people are sinning and dying and asking forgiveness. So where is the salvation than?

4everhisown and everybody.


First of all The Almighty bought us, this is what Moses sang after we left Egypt. So we where allready 4everhisown. = salvation etc.

What borders me in the first Rabbi's story. Is that the dogma is a Christian dogma, as if salvation is the only thing.
First off all, we do it once a year, and try to do good in the mean time.
2nd, Christians often believe that they are saved. So Why is the main dogma in the church: to talk about sin and being saved and satan etc.??? It sounds to me like somebody who is not completely out of his addiction.  IF we, after going through the reed-sea all the time would have analyzed what sin is and salvation, we never started to do something...

I just think if the story is true, that this rabbi listen to much to T.V. and western interpretation. That a person is misserable and needs to be saved...

Besides that in Churches it seems to much about believe.
I hear Christians saying if I believe and understand this text... (about not eating blood in N.T. or Shabbath vs. Sunday for example), than I will do it.
Believing comes first!
1 weakness is, that Christians are first self their own judge, for only if they believe in it they will do, they judge themselves what to believe. Another weakness is, that there is hardly any responsibility, or contract, or duties.
(that's partly why in the western world people mainly talk about rights). Only talking about rights is a weak system.

In Judaism you just have to do, even if you don't understand it yet. Off course that can become a system or addictive kind of religion also, so that's why we have to circumsize our flesh, heart and ears. Christians like to talk about hearts. But ears is also written, meaning LISTEN, listen what to do, and figure out how to understand it.

But the attitude that only believing and love is the main thing, I can't understand, it's to simple and weak.

Hi Yetzirah231;

I understand your post.  I see again a bit of controversy that could develop.  You mention Christianity not having a contract and in the first of your two posts you detail a 2nd day bacause some people may not be able to keep the contracted date due to changes in the westernized time zones etc.  that would make for great controversy.  Because to me, it opens up the idea that the world can spiral in such a way that the contract with the LORD becomes impossible for all people to adhere to...simultaneously, and thus a system must be developed, without the LORD saying so...mind you....and I make mighty point of that!  The LORD is not complaining, by the way, but men have decided that they can please the LORD in advance of His displeasure...so to speak, and create a 2nd day.  Yet, if the Christian says that it is a matter of belief and if you are in the 'time zone' that you believe is the day, and you observe it as such, you are keeping the law.  I happen to agree that the timezone thing is not unknown to the LORD, and that the belief thing is also not unknown to the LORD, and by the way, the LORD asked us to believe on Him...and obey Him, so I choose belief first, and then doing second.

the next thing I notice that could cause controversy, is well, the whole idea that there is no salvation if people are still sinning and dying and asking forgiveness; coupled with the paragraph about Judaism having a system that 'of course' can become addictive kind of religion and that is why there is circumcision of the flesh heart and ears....sounds too similar.  You are not making a distinction if both have such great flaws and must indeed make sacrifice or turn to circumcision to rectify the flaws  ...then, are you saying neither has salvation if any one person in either situation needs to turn and repent?

ok, nice chatting, hope you will continue...

bye for now,
kimberly

Shalom 4everhisown

I hope I understood your questions right and I try to answer...

1. We as a people when we received Torah said, we will DO and Listen/Understand...  So Doing was first. If you as a non-Jew take another approach fine, but it doesn't have to do with the way The Almighty accepted our approach. And by that your approach allthough it might be o.k. is not specifically Jewish by that, and it's one of the reasons why Christians should not learn us another way, why we allready were accepted.

The Timezones is a modern-thing and an easy explanation. In Reality in Temple-times they allready had this problem. First off all the days where determined by the position of the Moon and Sun mainly. When did the month start, and what was exactly new moon, or exactly night or light or dawn etc. Books are written about that. Than from the Temple it had to be made clear towards Irak and Turkey etc. That took time. I can't write here the whole subject, about how and what.
If you in a Christian way want to decide what is day, it's your choise, but not what God asked from us. Anyway maybe the 2nd day is the real day and the first a mistake, we just do both to be save.
As Christians started to mix up the year towards only a solar-calender, they allready mixed up Passover, and don't do it on the 14th of Nisan etc.
I heard a Christian Preacher once sayint that the dark period during the day when Jesus was on the cross was a solar-eclipse... Well that is not even posible on full moon!!!   If People just first start to believe something and than do, has it's concequences.
Let's say your father was born on Februari 29th, and at his 53th birthday he wants to celebrate it on Februari 28th (for that year there is no 29th) and you believe that celebrating it on March 1st is the option, than there might be a miscommunication about when to come etc.... But if you celebrate both days, at least 1 day your FATHER is happy.

2. Who says there is no salvation....?
I think indeed Christians stress that point much more than Jews.
My question is more, Christians still sin etc. but often claim that everything is allready fullfilled, or I am saved allready...  Where is judgement there? And also Christianity by that can become a addictive kind of religion.

see next post