Nathanael147 : Your questions are good. to answer your questions of when things were changed you may want to look up the church history of the laws written around 300 Ad. If the christian church was writing laws to prevent sabbath keeping at that time then some Christians must have kept the practice. As far as the claim of being put under the law, we are only under it if we are burdened by it. What if instead we see God's law as a tree of life. Then perhaps instead we are free to keep it. Paul was talking about a mindset switch not a change in the law. Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and then he explained it in more challenging terms. Now you are not only going to kept God's law but submit your thoughts to the obedience of the law as well. More challenging is ok because God will be dwelling with us once Jesus returns to heaven. However, Christian history does not show God's inter dwelling. Instead it shows a history of murder we are right to question where Christianity went right and where it messed up so we don't repeat the mistakes.
Kitten I have to disagree we are under the law as in we have to serve under the oldness of the letter.
This is what paul says
Romans 13:8 (King James Version)
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
it clear keeping The law was change instead of having to follow the letter and doing every single law It was change into just loving one another and Loving God First nothing more.
we are to love God and loving Him means keeping his commands which commands are we to keep? acts 15 tells which ones.
Reply To Sugarman: I read the link you included and it is very good in my opinion.(
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Article...vance.html) It basically says that Yeshua's life and whaty he taught was the way of love which fulfills Torah. This I already try to do. The link , Under the subtitle Covenant and Torah, gives an unclear statement. I couldn't copy/paste it here. BUt it leads me to your statement about the trinity: if teh Shema is true, then how can we teach Yeshua as "separate" from G-d the Father? I beliee that we MUST see them as one. If we don't, then the accusation that christian teaching advocates a new G-d to replace the creator G-d is true. Yes, there is a separateness to each member of the trinity, but Ruach HaKodesh, Yeshsua and G-d the father are one. Only opur G-d can do this but is it only G-d who can understand it.
it depends on what you mean we must see them as One.
1. I see them as One as being of The same nature and essence.
2. I do not see them as One as Jesus being The father and The holy ghost.
Nethanel147, thanks for reply..
O.k., I think Jesus wanted sometimes to open up Judaism and being the light etc. more towards the non-Jews. So he tried to be a bridge in his own way.
Off course I can trust more non-Jews (and I even sometimes distrust Jews like Jesus). But I'm just not always trusting the bridges of Messianics, I mean they are often to ''help'' us towards there side, while we didn't ask for it.
Trusting most other nations we are allowed to do within certain bouderies.
But thanks for knowing that your bridge seems to be more like normal contacts and questions.
I wish you a lot of wisdom.
Sugarman
The decision in Acts: Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. (KJV)
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
It is connected to the fact that the gentiles were reading Torah every sabbath. In 1st Century it was a three year cycle. This assumes that the gentiles in which they are making the concessions for are attending services on sabbath and listening to the Torah. They are allowing them time to learn. This allows time for the Torah to be written on their heart.Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
2000 years should have been enough time for us to learn but we rejected God's law entirely. Yet God is still merciful. God is writting his law on my heart and I will not take it off!
It is connected to the fact that the gentiles were reading Torah every sabbath. In 1st Century it was a three year cycle. This assumes that the gentiles in which they are making the concessions for are attending services on sabbath and listening to the Torah. They are allowing them time to learn. This allows time for the Torah to be written on their heart.Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Paul went to gentiles and jews on the sabbath because they knew they would be there. Paul did not go to keep the sabbath but to take advantage of preaching to them.
if acts 15 had any connection of the gentiles that they need to keep sabbath then the apostle elders would of include that in acts 15.
The reason paul write to the jewish place of worship and to the gentiles is because they did not even Know jesus even duo they read the Torah.
The Law is change The law is Love.
if you want to think we are under the Law as in law of moses then read paul words.
Galatians 4 (King James Version)
10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
You see The people in this chapter were trying to put believers under the law of moses which paul clearly shot against.
Also this verse.
Eph 2:15 (NIV) 15by abolishing in his flesh the law
with its commandments and regulations.
also this
Hebrews 8:13 (King James Version)
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Sugarman
The decision in Acts: Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. (KJV)
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
It is connected to the fact that the gentiles were reading Torah every sabbath. In 1st Century it was a three year cycle. This assumes that the gentiles in which they are making the concessions for are attending services on sabbath and listening to the Torah. They are allowing them time to learn. This allows time for the Torah to be written on their heart.Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
2000 years should have been enough time for us to learn but we rejected God's law entirely. Yet God is still merciful. God is writting his law on my heart and I will not take it off!
and yet the gentiles who were reading Torah on the sabbath did not Know jesus at the time as there lord and savior and that why paul went to preach on the sabbath to them.
If the gentiles were already believers then they would of knew they are not under Moses law.
both Hebrews and Ephesians tell us we are not under the regulations The commands of the old Covenant.
we are under The law of Christ and jesus brought forth only 2 commands from Torah loving God and everyone else.
if you do this you keep Torah in full.
Sugarman those two commands come from the Torah
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
Jesus was quoting from the Torah while saying:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
reply to Yetzirah231. Thank you for your kind reply. I agree with you about Messianics IF this is what they are doing. I am evangelical at heart. I desire to tell others about the things that will help and beneift them. So it is with the knowledge of yeshua as the maschiach. BUt it is NOt my job to convince only to tell. So if it is not wanted then I should not force it on anyone. This is not G-d's way nor yeshua's nor wil it be ime consequently since I try to get my cues for life from G-d. To convince is the job of Ruach ha Kodesh.
Yes yeshua certainly sought to be a bridge too. If through respect of the jewish things and and by truth , honesty, integrity in all my affairs and friendships I become one, so be it. Fare too long there has bem mistust between jew and christian where therre never should have been anything but undertsanding since avi is the father of both. Why hasn't this been taught or seen? Our actions speak loudly and so it went.May Hashem bless you , too, with all wisdom according to your ability. sincerely, Nathanael147
Sugarman those two commands come from the Torah
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
Jesus was quoting from the Torah while saying:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Kitten I do not think you understood any thing I had said.
You are correct then came from Torah but you are not correct we are under Torah in whole as needed to follow each command.
If you want to be under The law as in whole Then you would need to not to mix cloths with different threads etc.... You would need To stay at home at sabbath going ANYWHERE in the law on the sabbath is sin etc....
We are under The law of Christ which includes The 2 commands that said that hangs upon all the law.
These 2 commands are The Torah in Full.
If you love God for This is the first command jesus gave then you would not make graven images or have any others gods before him etc.... you will not take his name in vain etc.... if you love others as you love your self you will not steal or be jealous over someone else things.
You will not murder etc.... You need to understand these 2 commands have the Torah in full on which commands we are under what is written in the NT.
as for this part matthew 5:17 did you read verse 18? did jesus fulfill The Torah?
Yes or No?