Psalm 34:23 in the Jewish translation on Chabad.org:
"The Lord redeems the soul of His servants, and all who take refuge in Him shall not be accounted guilty."
That struck me as a perfect summary of salvation by faith as taught in the New Testament. The servants do not redeem their own souls by their good works; the Lord redeems them. All those who take refuge in Him (a perfect definition of faith), instead of trusting in their own good works or good intentions, shall not be accounted guilty, even though they are guilty in themselves of failing to obey the Law perfectly. ALL who take refuge in Him, not just those who are better than average at keeping the Law, shall not be accounted guilty.
Hebrews 6:18-20 "so that by two things which cannot change (in which it was not possible for God to lie) we might have strong comfort - we who have fled for refuge in order to lay hold upon the hope set before us - which we have as an anchor of the soul, both certain and sure, and entering into that inside the veil, where Jesus our Forerunner has entered for our sake, having become a High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
Shabbat Shalom.
Hello Thomas,
"even though they are guilty in themselves of failing to obey the Law perfectly. "
Where do you get such a notion? In other words where in the Torah does G-d say keep the Law perfectly? Sounds a little mean spirited and lacking in compassion doesn’t it?
[b]Why would Moses, whom you believe to be a prophet of G-d, teach repentance (Deut.)? Wouldn't that be pointless?
Also,
You took that verse above out of its context.
Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
If you read the entire Psalm as intended you get a very different perspective. Why do Christians do that? If you take almost any verse in the Bible out of its context you can make it say almost anything you want. [/b]
I hope that these are not inappropriate questions? I really am quite curious.
Best regards,
Avraham
"Why would Moses, whom you believe to be a prophet of G-d, teach repentance (Deut.)? Wouldn't that be pointless? "
No, it would not be pointless. Repentance opens the door to receive the salvation provided by God. If a person does not repent, he will not put his trust in God. Psalm 34:18 resoundingly confirms my point. I am not taking the verse out of context, just because I did not paste in the whole Psalm. I think it is you who are misunderstanding what I am saying.
You are quibbling about me saying that the man who trusts in God will be saved even if he is guilty of not keeping the law perfectly. You say that God would not be so mean spirited as to demand perfection. Think hard. If you think that God does not demand perfection, therefore you will not feel bad when you fail to be perfect and therefore you will not have a contrite heart and a broken heart spoken of in verse 18, and thus, it might be that God will not be near you to save you. You are in grave danger.
Why does G-d call those who sin "righteous"?
“You are quibbling about me saying that the man who trusts in God will be saved even if he is guilty of not keeping the law perfectly.”
I am simply saying that there is no scriptural basis for this notion that we are to keep the law perfectly. Thats the issue I was addressing.
“Think hard. If you think that God does not demand perfection,”
That’s an opinion and you are welcome to it my friend. But it is a conundrum isn’t it? You believe that an all knowing G-d demands perfection from his creation knowing they are incapable of achieving it.
I am enjoying our conversation very much. Thank you for your kindness and patience with me.
Best regards,
Avraham
"Why does G-d call those who sin "righteous"?"
Because they have received the righteousness which is of God by faith and are not clinging to their own incomplete righteousness.
"That’s an opinion and you are welcome to it my friend."
It is not really just an opinion. It is how I understand the statements of scripture such as this from Deuteronomy 5 "Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left."
And Deuteronomy 6:3-5
And you shall, [therefore,] hearken, O Israel, and be sure to perform, so that it will be good for you, and so that you may increase exceedingly, just as the Lord, the God of your fathers, spoke to you, a land flowing with milk and honey. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means."
Can you will love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and means imperfectly? That seems quite impossible, and, if it is impossible, as I conclude, then God meant to do it perfectly. That is how you can judge opinions, by seeing if they hold up consistently. I didn't just make up the notion. It seems to me what the text means, and the opposite notion that God demands only an effort leading to imperfect fulfillment is inconsistent with the use of words such as "all" and "do not turn aside either to the right or to the left".
"But it is a conundrum isn’t it? You believe that an all knowing G-d demands perfection from his creation knowing they are incapable of achieving it.
Let's take the first sin, eating from the tree. When God said, "But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die." Did God mean to observe the tree simply to try to keep from eating it. So then, could Adam take a teeny tiny bite of the apple and that would be okay because God knew that Adam could not resist the temptation forever. That is not what the text says. Eating of the tree is eating of the tree. Apply your question to that. An all-knowing God told Adam not to eat of the tree, knowing that the serpent would deceive Eve (or Chava) and then she would get Adam to eat it. Are you saying that God could not do that?
Well, the answer to the supposed conundrum is in the Torah:
Deuteronomy 30:6 "And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life."
It is right there in the Torah. All-knowing God gave the standard for righteousness, knowing that man would not love the Lord his God with all his heart and soul, and therefore would lose his life. God would have to put His people into captivity (read the whole chapter), but He would bring them back and circumcise their hearts so that they may love the Lord their God with all their heart and soul.
So, from the Torah you get the message that Israel is not going to keep God's Law, but needs a divine action to cause them to do it. That is exactly the message of the New Testament, including the details of how the new birth (circumcision of the heart) is to be accomplished through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Passover Lamb. You Jews respond that you don't need any divine solution, that any Law that God gave would necessarily be something you could do. However, the need for divine intervention through the circumcision of the heart of all those who trust in God is right there in the Tanach.
"Why does G-d call those who sin "righteous"?"
Because they have received the righteousness which is of God by faith and are not clinging to their own incomplete righteousness.
Yes by faith AND by their actions. Do you notice a pattern there? Everyone that is called righteous listened to G-d and then performed the actions required of them.
So yes, faith provides righteousness, when it is accompanied by the action of carrying out G-d's commands. G-d will pave the road, but you must walk on it.
I don't see any time where someone was called righteous just for their faith.
Dear Thomas,
"do not turn aside either to the right or to the left".
One only has to read further to see that if we do venture too far "to the left or the right" we can always return to G-d. It’s beautiful! Also, keep in mind that it is Moses speaking. He is saying farewell to the Israelites. It is a gentle admonishment to a people he loved dearly. It wasn’t black and white.
Best regards,
Avraham
"So yes, faith provides righteousness, when it is accompanied by the action of carrying out G-d's commands. G-d will pave the road, but you must walk on it.
I don't see any time where someone was called righteous just for their faith."
No, G-d provides righteousness to the one who repents of his wickedness trusts in G-d. That righteousness is given through the new birth, also called circumcision of the heart. That righteousness causes the person to delight in the Law of G-d. Thus, that person seeks to do G-d's will in his actions.
Your illustration of paving the road not only is not Biblical, but it is incorrect. G-d gives the heart to delight in His Law, and those who receive this new heart WILL, not simply must, walk in His Law. For now, this new birth is spiritual only and the born-again person has to struggle against the desires of the flesh which are contrary to G-d's Law.
So, it is not "just faith", since faith produces fruits in the life, and the work of circumcising the heart produces righteous acts in the life. However, those righteous acts are no longer my righteousness by deeds of the Law which I have done, or which I "must" do. They are the result of G-d's work in me, and are therefore the righteousness which is of G-d by faith.