The Roman Catholic Church, though agreeing with the fundamentals, needs to re-examine the following doctrines:
- Infant Baptism. Infant baptism is not wrong. However, it does not save. (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16, John 14:6, Acts 15, Romans 2:25, 4:9; Colossians 2:11)
- Faith by works. Faith alone is the only saving work, and not a work of ours. (Romans 3-4)
- The celibacy of priests and nuns. (1 Corinthians 7, 9:4-6; 1 Timothy 3, 4:1-7; Titus 1)
- Transubstantiation, the key doctrine that especially needs to be re-examined. (Verses disproving that wine does turn into blood
, Acts 15:29,
Verses disproving that bread turns into flesh, with two verses seeming to be an exception, 1 Corinthians 11:24-26)
In viewing Communities of Judaism that are isolated from Christ, there may be a possible legal clause which will allow them who know not Jesus to commune with Him through the Mosaic Covenant...but it may be splitting hairs...or it may be on the mark. I don't know.
Please do not take this as doctrine, but rather as an exercise in theoretic hermeneutics.
Each Passover that a Jew observes and takes of the Third Cup of Wine and the broken Second Matzoh, he too takes Communion of the Eucharist -- but through the Mosaic Covenant.
He too, participates in eating the body of, and drinking the blood of Christ. By doing so, they apparently can hook into the Righteousness of Yeshua / Jesus, who by His sacrifice and atonement, enables them to be hooked in spiritually to G-D -- like an application of John 15:5. If they believe and trust into the Pesach sacrifice, not in their own works -- but in HASHEM's Atonement, and don't defile it with the "queen of Heaven" songs and such nonsense. And it doesn't help to serve beef or turkey in place of lamb. Further, it is better still, if -- as the Temple Mount Faithful do -- follow Torah requirements, and keep the Lamb 4 days and slaughter it yourself, and roast and eat it with your 12 co-participants like a synagogue or Church unto yourselves.
But Talmud and rabbinics teach them to NOT believe as Bible teaches, but as they tell them that the Bible is to be understood. The followers are to take most all Biblical passages in a confused set of values as to what is symbolism, and prefer symbolism over literalism -- thus most always barring the correctly placed Faith and the Door to Heaven.
These very few believers (isolated from the Gospel) who have run these gambits may too, it seems to me, apparently be part of the Great Church in the Israel flock of G-D -- through the Mosaic Covenant given them specifically. However, they cannot be hostile to and spiritually degrade/profane Jesus. To know and denegrate Jesus is to be as apostate, and cut off from the Heavenly flock...as they no longer trust in the merits of the Pesach Communion.
In fact, once Yeshua is preached in a proper manner or context to them, these automatically are drawn to become believers in Yeshua anyway.
And, this alternative -- if it is, and I must stress rarely so if it is -- is NOT available to the non-Jew, because it is a literal partaking of Communion through Mosaic Covenant. Yet, John 14:6 is still, in this way, fulfilled. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me."
I know this must sound upsetting to many, both Gentile and Jew, but the gifts and calling of G-D are without repentance, and the Jew may fall under certain passages as Jeremiah 31:10, as long as they be found in some way, in the True Messiah...YHVeH Messhiach. Shalom.
Dear Brother.
Interesting questions you pose.
Did you read the testimony of professor Scott Hahn, which I referred to in another post at this site? Otherwise here it comes again:
http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm
Interesting it is, that such men as doctor Hahn and David Currie - who has a masters degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and was brought up a fundamentalist who believed Catholics would go to hell – both these men came to the conclusion, based on their honest studies of Scripture, that the Catholic Church is the most authentic Church as to what Jesus intended and established. I know that Scott Hahn brought about 40 people with him when he reconciled with the Catholic Church. Both men also say that the moment they started digging into Scripture and studying the earliest Christian sources they admitted they saw many aspects, which they had had to ignore during their evangelical upbringing. The way towards deeper truth, that these gentlemen have taken, is always marked with suffering and self-effacement. Therefore they have something to tell the rest of us.
I advice you to read the books of these fellows and even further sources if you have an honest interest in looking at the teachings and motives of the Catholic Church. I am pretty new my self in Catholicism so I recommend some better guidance for you if you have a keen interest.
It’s always easy to point out certain Bible verses and say that some other is wrong.. it’s more difficult to really hear out that other’s perspective.
I don’t say this in a patronizing way. I know many evangelicals whom I worship and pray with very often and whom I see have a deep wisdom in Christ through the Spirit.. people who are on fire with love. I believe the Catholics have much to learn from these brethren… and much that they will learn on the coming day when Jesus’ prayer will be fulfilled: “That they all may be one..” And I have listened attentively at endless hours of sermons by fantastic evangelical preachers, mostly Pentecostal, before and also after my own entrance into the Catholic Church …I grew up as a Lutheran. So I know some of the differences. Much of it is only air and old prejudice.
Now to the points in question.
Baptism. The Bible is clear that Faith, given in the grace of God, is a criteria for salvation. It’s always stated directly or is commonly understood that baptism and faith go together. Otherwise it is absurd. The Church teaches that same idea: There is no salvation in baptism alone – though always grace. Many people have apostatised throughout history.. whether they had been baptized as children or adults, one time or several...
Salvation by faith or deeds. You want the truth to this question for Catholics? The answer is: Salvation through Grace. The same is true for protestant theology.
That’s the crucial first understanding before any further discussion can take place. We are saved by grace.
The Catholic Catechism puts it like this: “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification”. (CCC 2010)
Yet the question is “how does God’s grace become an active part of my life?”.
That’s the question about justification. To put it short the Catholic Church holds that both the faith and the works are solely the result of God’s Grace.
Are both faith and works necessary? Yes. This is actually clear from the Bible. Jesus says: “Not everyone who says to Me: “Lord, Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. But only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven”. (Mt 7:21) It’s also written that the demons also know who Jesus is.. and they tremble as it is written. It’s is not said they can therefore be saved. No for they have not Love. Since you live with the Word you know I could quote many similar passages.. But no need here. But in order to understand this correctly you are faced with a choice to discern what Paul is actually on about in his letter to the Romans. You have to consider that there are two different uses of the word “works” or “deeds” in the Bible. The one is the “works of the law”… such as cleaning the vessels, being circumcised etc.. These CANNOT save a soul .. but then there are the works of charity: these are crucial to salvation. Jesus own life testifies to this in the most awesome way.. would you have had respect for Him today if He had only been sitting around in the temple with the other scribes talking about wisdom. No, Jesus is Love and Love is always action. Without action it’s not credible. He said: “What ever you DID NOT DO unto the least of these brothers.. You DID NOT DO unto Me”, when speaking of the final judgement.
As James says in his epistle: “A faith without works/deeds (of charity) is as dead as a body without a spirit.” And “Show me this faith of yours without works (of charity) – and then I will, with my works (of charity), show you my faith!” ( I am writing this by memory.. you can look into your Bible your self as you recognize the passages from James).
Did you ever also consider Paul's famous words: "Then there is faith, hope and love, but greatest of all is love"... that means, in the eyes of a Catholic: love is the way. You may possess all knowlegde but still have no love...that wont bring you salvation. On the other hand; you may know nothing and still have love. then there is a chance...
It’s interesting to know that Luther, the man whom some claim have received more veneration by evangelicals than any catholic saint ever has by catholics, called James’ letter “a letter of straw”. (And this man is famous for honouring Sacred Scripture :/
Furthermore David B. Currie writes: “..I found out that some of the reformers had tampered with verse 8 (in Eph 2:8-10) to make it say what they wanted : they added the word
alone, making the verse say “saved through faith
alone”. The word
alone is not in the Greek, nor in the context, nor is the idea conveyed by this changed verse found anywhere else in the Bible”. (Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic. p. 118)
Some think in the lines of: “Get the right answer and you’re in”. But is does not work like this. We are to give all what we have.. body, mind and soul; co-operating with God. Life is a process of conversion. Works continue the justification after faith has begun it. God does not take our will away.
Catholics have been blamed for being proud in their sticking to the doctrine of faith-and-works. The question is however whether is it not the only Biblically valid interpretation.. plus the most balanced.
I will continue another day… we have the most wonderful part ahead of us: the Holy Communion, the Eucharist, the last Supper
With love in Christ,
Katarina <><
Katarina,
My, that's a beautiful name...no, I haven't checked Scott Hahn out as yet.
In terms of faith and works, we are all striving to find that perfect balance, while understanding the intermittent interference of the sin nature. Please check my 11/8 response to Chaim about this very topic ( and respond?)
I acknowledge I don't have all the answers, but I do believe I seem to be further along than many. Perhaps others can have their gifts stirred up, and learn and even teach me, and in the process, we all get further along in the wisdom - knowledge - understanding - grace - mercy of G-D.
I do sincerely appreciate your (and a few others) inputs. But let us not forget, no one Catholic of the universal Church in which we all belong, not one of us has the perfect Church or denomination. We all must weed out false doctrine...but alas, so often we are like good wheat mixed in a field of weeds, or as flowers of an overgrown garden.
Even the angels are concerned...but alas, as the Scripture says (Matthew 13:27-30), we must all wait until the harvest. Bless you for your participation. In the taking of Eucharist, we confess that we are already one in Christ, co-participants in His One Body, in His Universal Catholic Church (not bound to one Earthly Institution). Thanks again, though. And to you and all brothers and sisters in Messhiach... Shalom.
Dear Brother.
Interesting questions you pose.
Did you read the testimony of professor Scott Hahn, which I referred to in another post at this site? Otherwise here it comes again:
http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm
Interesting it is, that such men as doctor Hahn and David Currie - who has a masters degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and was brought up a fundamentalist who believed Catholics would go to hell – both these men came to the conclusion, based on their honest studies of Scripture, that the Catholic Church is the most authentic Church as to what Jesus intended and established. I know that Scott Hahn brought about 40 people with him when he reconciled with the Catholic Church. Both men also say that the moment they started digging into Scripture and studying the earliest Christian sources they admitted they saw many aspects, which they had had to ignore during their evangelical upbringing. The way towards deeper truth, that these gentlemen have taken, is always marked with suffering and self-effacement. Therefore they have something to tell the rest of us.
I advice you to read the books of these fellows and even further sources if you have an honest interest in looking at the teachings and motives of the Catholic Church. I am pretty new my self in Catholicism so I recommend some better guidance for you if you have a keen interest.
I would beg to differ that the Roman Catholic church is what Jesus intended. Just read Luther's testimony and you'll see how much Roman Catholicism disgraced Luther, though Luther wasn't perfect even in Protestantism.
It’s always easy to point out certain Bible verses and say that some other is wrong.. it’s more difficult to really hear out that other’s perspective.
I don’t say this in a patronizing way. I know many evangelicals whom I worship and pray with very often and whom I see have a deep wisdom in Christ through the Spirit.. people who are on fire with love. I believe the Catholics have much to learn from these brethren… and much that they will learn on the coming day when Jesus’ prayer will be fulfilled: “That they all may be one..” And I have listened attentively at endless hours of sermons by fantastic evangelical preachers, mostly Pentecostal, before and also after my own entrance into the Catholic Church …I grew up as a Lutheran. So I know some of the differences. Much of it is only air and old prejudice.
Now to the points in question.
Baptism. The Bible is clear that Faith, given in the grace of God, is a criteria for salvation. It’s always stated directly or is commonly understood that baptism and faith go together. Otherwise it is absurd. The Church teaches that same idea: There is no salvation in baptism alone – though always grace. Many people have apostatised throughout history.. whether they had been baptized as children or adults, one time or several...
Baptism doesn't save, as it is only a sign of the covenant used by the parents or one who comes to believe. Did you read the verses I posted?
[Quote: Kataina]
Salvation by faith or deeds. You want the truth to this question for Catholics? The answer is: Salvation through Grace. The same is true for protestant theology.
That’s the crucial first understanding before any further discussion can take place. We are saved by grace.
The Catholic Catechism puts it like this: “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification”. (CCC 2010)
Yet the question is “how does God’s grace become an active part of my life?”.
That’s the question about justification. To put it short the Catholic Church holds that both the faith and the works are solely the result of God’s Grace.
Are both faith and works necessary? Yes. This is actually clear from the Bible. Jesus says: “Not everyone who says to Me: “Lord, Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. But only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven”. (Mt 7:21) It’s also written that the demons also know who Jesus is.. and they tremble as it is written. It’s is not said they can therefore be saved. No for they have not Love. Since you live with the Word you know I could quote many similar passages.. But no need here. But in order to understand this correctly you are faced with a choice to discern what Paul is actually on about in his letter to the Romans. You have to consider that there are two different uses of the word “works” or “deeds” in the Bible. The one is the “works of the law”… such as cleaning the vessels, being circumcised etc.. These CANNOT save a soul .. but then there are the works of charity: these are crucial to salvation. Jesus own life testifies to this in the most awesome way.. would you have had respect for Him today if He had only been sitting around in the temple with the other scribes talking about wisdom. No, Jesus is Love and Love is always action. Without action it’s not credible. He said: “What ever you DID NOT DO unto the least of these brothers.. You DID NOT DO unto Me”, when speaking of the final judgement.
As James says in his epistle: “A faith without works/deeds (of charity) is as dead as a body without a spirit.” And “Show me this faith of yours without works (of charity) – and then I will, with my works (of charity), show you my faith!” ( I am writing this by memory.. you can look into your Bible your self as you recognize the passages from James).
Did you ever also consider Paul's famous words: "Then there is faith, hope and love, but greatest of all is love"... that means, in the eyes of a Catholic: love is the way. You may possess all knowlegde but still have no love...that wont bring you salvation. On the other hand; you may know nothing and still have love. then there is a chance...
It’s interesting to know that Luther, the man whom some claim have received more veneration by evangelicals than any catholic saint ever has by catholics, called James’ letter “a letter of straw”. (And this man is famous for honouring Sacred Scripture :/
Furthermore David B. Currie writes: “..I found out that some of the reformers had tampered with verse 8 (in Eph 2:8-10) to make it say what they wanted : they added the word
alone, making the verse say “saved through faith
alone”. The word
alone is not in the Greek, nor in the context, nor is the idea conveyed by this changed verse found anywhere else in the Bible”. (Born Fundamentalist, born again Catholic. p. 118)
[/quote]
Church tradition isn't going to help. Only the Bible helps, and then church tradition can be deemed good or bad. “Not everyone who says to Me: “Lord, Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. But only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven”. (Mt 7:21) simply means this: Those who don't have salvation can't do good works. Read the Book of Isaiah.
Some think in the lines of: “Get the right answer and you’re in”. But is does not work like this. We are to give all what we have.. body, mind and soul; co-operating with God. Life is a process of conversion. Works continue the justification after faith has begun it. God does not take our will away.
Catholics have been blamed for being proud in their sticking to the doctrine of faith-and-works. The question is however whether is it not the only Biblically valid interpretation.. plus the most balanced.
I will continue another day… we have the most wonderful part ahead of us: the Holy Communion, the Eucharist, the last Supper
Katarina, again, works can't save. Works come from faith, as they are a
sign of faith, not what saves. You really didn't read what I posted, did you?
With love in Christ,
Katarina <><
[/quote]
Katarina,
I checked Scott's website. The testimony didn't impress me. Sorry. I also was shocked that no one posted on the subject of Trinity...but it looks like the web site is new, as there were few postings on the many subjects of interest. I may check back again later, but cannot in good conscience recommend that site. Thanks for the referral to look, though. Shalom.
Dear Brianroy.
You wrote: “But let us not forget, no one Catholic of the universal Church in which we all belong, not one of us has the perfect Church or denomination. We all must weed out false doctrine...but alas, so often we are like good wheat mixed in a field of weeds, or as flowers of an overgrown garden.”
I fully agree with you. As I have in no way withheld, from you or any of the brethren inhere, that the Church is in agony. I am not sure what you meant by “false doctrine”. I do believe Christ mourns His bride.. there is much sickness and death in her, but still He will not let the gates of hell prevail over her. He defends her from heresy. That is what I believe, since I am a Catholic: That’s is only natural. I believe the Holy Spirit protects the Church from false dogmas and teaching. He is the One Infallible.. not the Church as such which is the people / the living stones of the temple who are as humans fragile.. neither is the Pope infallible as some anti-catholic people claim.
.. You are speaking of the individual soul in which weeds grow side by side with the flowers.. and yes, it is ever so difficult to get rid of it. As Padre Pio once said: “There is no way of sin to enter into a person except for one way only: the demon has only one door by which to enter into our soul: the will. There are no secret doors”. Therefore we need the baptism in the Holy Spirit… to baptise also the will and transform us in His Light Trice Holy. The whole creation is waiting for the day with silent anticipation when the Lord will fulfil His Word and the Spirit will come upon all flesh.. I think it may have something to do with the “illumination”, the “warning” or what else the saints and mystics have called it throughout history: In a split second, as it seems, we shall all know the Truth”…
From your beautiful words on the Eucharist I guess you are Catholic… but then again I cannot guess. You could also be a Protestant.
About dr. Hahn’s testimony. Did you find it on
www.chnetwork.org? I enjoyed reading his testimony in there as well as that of many others who have reconciled with the Catholic faith after a long and serious quest for Truth.
Yet I am also painfully aware of the fact that no one Christian can tell another to come this way or that in order to receive the fullness of the banquet Christ has prepared for us. I have seen it so many times and I conclude that only God can teach this generation. Our hearts yearn for truth and authenticity.. There are so many voices. Only when we hear His will we rise and come running. Yet I delight in the beauty and ways of the Son of Man for His ways are life and love in abundance. He finds ways even where there are none..
“though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. And
though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing”. ( 1 Cor. 13)
Yours in Christ,
Katarina <><
Dear Brother.
You are right. I did not read the passages of Scripture which you urged me to read in order that we base our conversation on these, and I beg your pardon. I regret it, as I did also when I sent the post to you, knowing very well that I sent you a work half-done. However, that last post still stands in effect and I hold to the things stated therein. I can claim the same truths when using your passage alone.
On faith and deeds. Rom 3-4:
I have, in what I have written following, reflected on the paragraphs, which I assume you centre on in your own argument.
I don’t in all these verses see anything contrary to what the Catholic Church says. Amen, the Church would not deliberately say anything against Scripture. I can’t help but think there is a bit of rashness involved when you, without further ado, assume, at least by indication, that 2000 years of Church teachers, whether these be scholars, monks or early church fathers, were wrong in their interpretation of these verses, which are so crucial and central to the whole faith.
The Church teaches:“Undeservedly we have been justified by His Grace..” (Rom: 3:24)
And “We believe that a person is justified by faith, without works of the law. (Rom 3:28) Amen! - Again Church teaching. The R.C. Church has only nót disregarded the other passages in Scripture, such as James’ about dead faith, at the expense of this one from Romans. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think what it comes down to is really a definition of “faith”. To the Catholics live faith is always one of confession both by belief and deeds(of charity). As James said, and Paul certainly meant: “A faith without deeds (of charity) is as dead as a body without a spirit”. This is all in the Bible.
As it is written: Abramham believed God and it meant his justification. Now read about Abraham and you will see that he acted upon the belief. His belief was not theory.. his belief was active love. He did not do works of the law in order to be justified.. he did the deeds of love and obedience towards God .. whether it be in helping Lot or in bringing his son and hope to be sacrificed on Moriah. What is obedience if not a movement which penetrates the whole person, body, mind, soul, hands and feet… Walking in faith? Truly the deeds, which Paul preaches against in his epistle, is those of the law. And truly, sin is what we do and what we omit to do. A “living human being” cannot be separated from “a moving being”.. neither can the final judgement be separated from judgment of our actions, as is clearly written.
You write: “Church tradition isn't going to help. Only the Bible helps, and then church tradition can be deemed good or bad. “Not everyone who says to Me: “Lord, Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. But only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven”. (Mt 7:21) simply means this: Those who don't have salvation can't do good works. Read the Book of Isaiah.”
These words of yours are full of interesting points, and a course of consideration, which takes us into a whole new topics
For one: try and pray about whether the Bible it self teaches “Sola Scriptura”. Can you find these exact two words in there for instance? no, they are not to be found. But consider such passage: Th 2: 15: “Stand firm then brothers and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” You may say the Catholic Church is not representing the “tradition by word” here mentioned (that is a question of individual faith) but I urge you to honestly consider if every kind of Christendom, whatever it claims, haven’t got its own tradition/way of interpreting the Will and Word of God. As far as I see, all Christians believe in the tradition in some way, since they believe in the guidance of the Spirit in collecting the canon of what we today call the New Testament.. a process in the hands of the early Church over a long time…
However I’d rather dwell a bit on your other point: “Can people who have not heard of Christ do any good at all, let alone be saved?”. I think this is an old discussion, indeed. Even as I was growing up in Protestantism there were many different opinions among the pious about the answer to this. In my own search for finding out what Jesus really is saying in His Word I came across two important passages. You may not interpret these as I do, but I find in them a testimony of the unfathomable Mercy of the Lord. I quote from The New Jerusalem Bible: (Rom 2: 13-) “For the ones that God will justify are not the ones who have heard the law but those who have kept the Law* . So when gentiles, not having the Law, still through their own innate sense, behave as the law commands, then, even though they have no Law, they are law for themselves. They can demonstrate the effect of the Law engraved on their hearts, to which their own conscience bears witness: since they are aware of various considerations, some of which accuse them, while others provide them with a defence.” As a brother once said to me, this is very little defence to have on the Day of the Lord as comparison to the Blood of the Lamb.. but still.. it is written. And since these “considerations” can serve as “defence” then there must be something good in them.. even also for the Bushman in Africa who never heard of Christ the Redeemer. Yes I am talking about conscience.
I hope you understand my reasoning. I believe firmly that the Lord Himself has given these answers to me through His Word as I have sought them in honesty and prayer of the heart.
* Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, as it is written. And He is Love.. Charity, Pity..
The other passage the Lord showed me is Luke 12: 47-48. Jesus, in a parable, says these words: “The servant who knows the will of his Lord, but has not prepared or done anything according to His Will, he will be given many strokes of the lash. The one who did not know the will of his Lord, and who has done something for which he deserves a beating, will be given fewer strokes.” What will be expected from us will be in accordance with what we have been given..
I think it speaks for it self. I welcome your gentle correction if you find my interpretation of these verses incorrect.
Now I must go.
Next time I will speak a bit about the Eucharist.
By the way: You write: “Baptism doesn't save, as it is only a sign of the covenant used by the parents or one who comes to believe.” I second that stance completely. Baptism by it self does not save.
To further discuss the C. Church teaching on baptism I will have to refer you to some other person who has more knowledge of this than I. I see that child-baptism is logical in so far as baptism equals beginning of Christian life. But I am not resolved on the matter myself, I confess to you, and I am at rest with that for the moment.
God bless you in abundance with an overflowing of true Life.
Your sister in Christ, Katarina <><
Ps. I did pray the Lord for your personal matter. Not only for the case but that love and reconciliation in Christ Jesus be the outcome.
“But you must do what the Word tells you and not just listen to It. Otherwise you are deceiving yourselves”. (James 1:22) … “… and though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13) …
Dear Brother.
You are right. I did not read the passages of Scripture which you urged me to read in order that we base our conversation on these, and I beg your pardon. I regret it, as I did also when I sent the post to you, knowing very well that I sent you a work half-done. However, that last post still stands in effect and I hold to the things stated therein. I can claim the same truths when using your passage alone.
On faith and deeds. Rom 3-4:
I have, in what I have written following, reflected on the paragraphs, which I assume you centre on in your own argument.
I don’t in all these verses see anything contrary to what the Catholic Church says. Amen, the Church would not deliberately say anything against Scripture. I can’t help but think there is a bit of rashness involved when you, without further ado, assume, at least by indication, that 2000 years of Church teachers, whether these be scholars, monks or early church fathers, were wrong in their interpretation of these verses, which are so crucial and central to the whole faith.
The Church teaches:“Undeservedly we have been justified by His Grace..” (Rom: 3:24)
And “We believe that a person is justified by faith, without works of the law. (Rom 3:28) Amen! - Again Church teaching. The R.C. Church has only nót disregarded the other passages in Scripture, such as James’ about dead faith, at the expense of this one from Romans. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think what it comes down to is really a definition of “faith”. To the Catholics live faith is always one of confession both by belief and deeds(of charity). As James said, and Paul certainly meant: “A faith without deeds (of charity) is as dead as a body without a spirit”. This is all in the Bible.
As it is written: Abramham believed God and it meant his justification. Now read about Abraham and you will see that he acted upon the belief. His belief was not theory.. his belief was active love. He did not do works of the law in order to be justified.. he did the deeds of love and obedience towards God .. whether it be in helping Lot or in bringing his son and hope to be sacrificed on Moriah. What is obedience if not a movement which penetrates the whole person, body, mind, soul, hands and feet… Walking in faith? Truly the deeds, which Paul preaches against in his epistle, is those of the law. And truly, sin is what we do and what we omit to do. A “living human being” cannot be separated from “a moving being”.. neither can the final judgement be separated from judgment of our actions, as is clearly written.
You write: “Church tradition isn't going to help. Only the Bible helps, and then church tradition can be deemed good or bad. “Not everyone who says to Me: “Lord, Lord” will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. But only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven”. (Mt 7:21) simply means this: Those who don't have salvation can't do good works. Read the Book of Isaiah.”
These words of yours are full of interesting points, and a course of consideration, which takes us into a whole new topics
For one: try and pray about whether the Bible it self teaches “Sola Scriptura”. Can you find these exact two words in there for instance? no, they are not to be found. But consider such passage: Th 2: 15: “Stand firm then brothers and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” You may say the Catholic Church is not representing the “tradition by word” here mentioned (that is a question of individual faith) but I urge you to honestly consider if every kind of Christendom, whatever it claims, haven’t got its own tradition/way of interpreting the Will and Word of God. As far as I see, all Christians believe in the tradition in some way, since they believe in the guidance of the Spirit in collecting the canon of what we today call the New Testament.. a process in the hands of the early Church over a long time…
However I’d rather dwell a bit on your other point: “Can people who have not heard of Christ do any good at all, let alone be saved?”. I think this is an old discussion, indeed. Even as I was growing up in Protestantism there were many different opinions among the pious about the answer to this. In my own search for finding out what Jesus really is saying in His Word I came across two important passages. You may not interpret these as I do, but I find in them a testimony of the unfathomable Mercy of the Lord. I quote from The New Jerusalem Bible: (Rom 2: 13-) “For the ones that God will justify are not the ones who have heard the law but those who have kept the Law* . So when gentiles, not having the Law, still through their own innate sense, behave as the law commands, then, even though they have no Law, they are law for themselves. They can demonstrate the effect of the Law engraved on their hearts, to which their own conscience bears witness: since they are aware of various considerations, some of which accuse them, while others provide them with a defence.” As a brother once said to me, this is very little defence to have on the Day of the Lord as comparison to the Blood of the Lamb.. but still.. it is written. And since these “considerations” can serve as “defence” then there must be something good in them.. even also for the Bushman in Africa who never heard of Christ the Redeemer. Yes I am talking about conscience.
I hope you understand my reasoning. I believe firmly that the Lord Himself has given these answers to me through His Word as I have sought them in honesty and prayer of the heart.
* Christ is the fulfilment of the Law, as it is written. And He is Love.. Charity, Pity..
The other passage the Lord showed me is Luke 12: 47-48. Jesus, in a parable, says these words: “The servant who knows the will of his Lord, but has not prepared or done anything according to His Will, he will be given many strokes of the lash. The one who did not know the will of his Lord, and who has done something for which he deserves a beating, will be given fewer strokes.” What will be expected from us will be in accordance with what we have been given..
I think it speaks for it self. I welcome your gentle correction if you find my interpretation of these verses incorrect.
Now I must go.
Next time I will speak a bit about the Eucharist.
By the way: You write: “Baptism doesn't save, as it is only a sign of the covenant used by the parents or one who comes to believe.” I second that stance completely. Baptism by it self does not save.
To further discuss the C. Church teaching on baptism I will have to refer you to some other person who has more knowledge of this than I. I see that child-baptism is logical in so far as baptism equals beginning of Christian life. But I am not resolved on the matter myself, I confess to you, and I am at rest with that for the moment.
God bless you in abundance with an overflowing of true Life.
Your sister in Christ, Katarina <><
Ps. I did pray the Lord for your personal matter. Not only for the case but that love and reconciliation in Christ Jesus be the outcome.
“But you must do what the Word tells you and not just listen to It. Otherwise you are deceiving yourselves”. (James 1:22) … “… and though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13) …
Katarina,
Here's what you have to decide: Are you going to trust the Roman Catholic Church or the Bible?