JFJ Forums

I have question directed to those in Judaism. What do you guys make of these verses in the Tanakh  .
Isaiah Chapter 49
1 Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken, ye peoples, from far: the LORD hath called me from the womb, from the bowels of my mother hath He made mention of my name; 2 And He hath made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of His hand hath He hid me; and He hath made me a polished shaft, in His quiver hath He concealed me; 3 And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.' 4 But I said: 'I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.' {S} 5 And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength-- 6 Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.' {S}

Isaiah Chapter 51
4 Attend unto Me, O My people, and give ear unto Me, O My nation; for instruction shall go forth from Me, and My right on a sudden for a light of the peoples. 5 My favour is near, My salvation is gone forth, and Mine arms shall judge the peoples; the isles shall wait for Me, and on Mine arm shall they trust.

Isaiah Chapter 52
13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- 15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive. {S}

To  me this speaks of the Messiah, who will bring the gentiles into the knowledge of G-D. Do you agree, and if not why not? It is clear to me Jesus has fulfilled bringing the knowledge of G-D to the nations. Many many gentiles believe in the G-D of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, because of Christianity. Now I know you will disagree with me on that. Which is why I wanted your opinions, on why Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies. Some of you may even disagree that they are in any way messianic. I am looking forward to a good friendly discussion. Thanks in advance.
G-D bless

[quote=tundrawolf]
I have question directed to those in Judaism. What do you guys make of these verses in the Tanakh  .
Isaiah Chapter 49
1 Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken, ye peoples, from far: the LORD hath called me from the womb, from the bowels of my mother hath He made mention of my name; 2 And He hath made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of His hand hath He hid me; and He hath made me a polished shaft, in His quiver hath He concealed me; 3 And He said unto me: 'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.' 4 But I said: 'I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.' {S} 5 And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength-- 6 Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.' {S}

Isaiah Chapter 51
4 Attend unto Me, O My people, and give ear unto Me, O My nation; for instruction shall go forth from Me, and My right on a sudden for a light of the peoples. 5 My favour is near, My salvation is gone forth, and Mine arms shall judge the peoples; the isles shall wait for Me, and on Mine arm shall they trust.

Isaiah Chapter 52
13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- 15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive. {S}

To  me this speaks of the Messiah, who will bring the gentiles into the knowledge of G-D. Do you agree, and if not why not? It is clear to me Jesus has fulfilled bringing the knowledge of G-D to the nations. Many many gentiles believe in the G-D of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, because of Christianity. Now I know you will disagree with me on that. Which is why I wanted your opinions, on why Jesus did not fulfill these prophecies. Some of you may even disagree that they are in any way messianic. I am looking forward to a good friendly discussion. Thanks in advance.
G-D bless
[/quote= Robert]It would be hard to reason thinking otherwise my friend! Blessings

Dear tundrawolf,

The simple answer to your question is that the nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel..........but

Let's agree that the Prophet throughout Isaiah is speaking of Jesus. How does G-D fear G-D in the verse below?

"Isaiah 11:1-2: (1) And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots. (2) And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and heroism, a spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord."

A couple of questions?

Jesus occupies the ceremonial privileges and status as first born and Jesus is always referred to as the only son of God.

What do you make of this verse below?

Israel is G-d's first-born son.

Exodus 4:22: And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel."'

Also,

"14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--"

Are you implying, please pardon me here, that Jesus was ugly?


Best regards,

Avraham

[quote=Avraham]
Jesus occupies the ceremonial privileges and status as first born and Jesus is always referred to as the only son of God.
What do you make of this verse below?
Israel is G-d's first-born son.
[ reply= Robert] Jesus never said He was the only Son of G-d, as I have stated in multiple postings.Yeshua said; who is my brother, and mother, and sister? All that love the Father and obey His Word, and recieve His Word. Then it has been stated for these words , Yeshua disrepected His birth mother!How can you disrespect what G-d has brought as life for all Israel, and say it is disrespect?
Exodus 4:22: And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel."'
[ reply = Robert] Why do you separate yourselves from  the G-d of Old and evelasting, who has chosen His Son to bring His New Covenant; Is not Immanuel; G-d with us? from G-d ; Through His Son;a Jew, to restore life to the dust, and the remnant, infused perfection , delivered from the curse of sin and death to the Son's of Israel! It must seem confusing to you, as I came from the New, and you from the Old, but the same G-d!  I- myself like you seek G-d's truth,[ G-d of Israel, and I have found , from the Hebrew , a refined understanding of this truth, from mis- conceptions,mis-translations, and vailed truth, primarily constructed from lack of knowledge of the same faith that Abraham carried within him,through out the time of Israel , unto today ; the same G-d;Yehoshua; alive, and still at work integrated into ;Israel ; the firstborn Son of G-d.!
Also,

[ Avraham] According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--"
Are you implying, please pardon me here, that Jesus was ugly?
[ Reply = Robert] Yeshua was beaten beyond recognition, and His beard , ripped from His face. He could have called a thousand Angels, but why did He not? Would Isaiahs prophesy then hold true?You are given an opportunity to acknowledge Him, but it is required! Deuteronomy 18:18. It is still not finished until all the sons of Israel understand, and accept the G-d of Israel's Covenant!

Hi just, short because it's late here.

Well I think that a lot of people through Christianity or outside of Judaism and Christianity can find the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jethro might have, and even the Pharao's could have found Him, and Adam and Eve etc.
Judaism doesn't claim that everybody has to become Jewish to have contact to The Almighty. Nor that anybody should believe in a King or Messiah etc. to reach the Almighty. Although that He might deside when it's time to take action.
Also Abraham brought knowledge of G-d to the Nations, it's not written that he made everybody Jewish. Nor where the people who came with us out of Egypt part of the 12 tribes. So redemption was an option for non-Jews always.
I just wanted to write it, to understand that this part of the question is allready seen differently by us. A lot of Gentiles can be fullfilled in knowledge about The Almighty in different ways. During Noachs time there are some written rules about that. (even Sem, Ham en Japheth where saved and not Jewish, some laws where for all humanity by the SAME Almighty).

So we don't have an concept written in Tenach that ''only through the Messiah people can know the Father''. By that, we also don't have to fill in everywhere that texts have to do with 1 specific Messiah.
Till later...

[quote=Yetzirah231]
Hi just, short because it's late here.

Well I think that a lot of people through Christianity or outside of Judaism and Christianity can find the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jethro might have, and even the Pharao's could have found Him, and Adam and Eve etc.
Also Abraham brought knowledge of G-d to the Nations, it's not written that he made everybody Jewish. Nor where the people who came with us out of Egypt part of the 12 tribes. So redemption was an option for non-Jews always.
, some laws where for all humanity by the SAME Almighty).
[/quote= Robert]I understand your point, as I have discussed this issue of the Covenants in another forum. If our belief as Christians- corresponds to the Words of Moses and the prophets, then we would know the same G-d then, as He is today. Did not all men fall under the curse of Adam, despite thier works? All men have died!,except Elijah and Enoch who I believe to be the two witnesses before the Meshiach. If works saves men , then why do men die under this curse. In turn , you may say; If Yeshus came to deliver us from this curse , then why do men still die? Good point ! the answer lies in that G-d has not yet completed gathering His chosen , leaving them to grow in free will to choose to serve Him. The Covenant stands then, as it is brought today; New, by grace, frees us from today, from the laws all men have broken from Old, by the Love of the Father, that we may love Him freely, in His image. Man cannot hate, and kill, and blasmemy G-d,unchanged in heart, living in wickedness and think grace will save him, and that he may say ; he loves G-d!; Jew or Gentile! The same then , as it is today!It seems Joseph , and David shadow the jurisprudence of G-d's Workings in Yeshua' words that have been masked by evil to the elect! We must know that the G-d of Moses is the same G-d of grace then, as Yehoshua is today, who brings this Covenant from Old,continued in Grace, and from the Love of the G-d of Israel for His people ; Israel; else we as believers in Yeshua cannot find New without the Old, as Old cannot find G-d without the New ,Without the G-d of Moses![ The Eternal G-d of Israel]If they do not match, it is man's blindness, not G-d's!The Noahide Laws are fulfilled by the workings of the Holy Spirit,in the written words upon the heart of the New Covenant, which are in fact, the resemblence to the basic integrety of the Tanach! Thankyou Yetzirah- Great insight!